here it goes again

[MikeRaphone]

Red i totally respect you, voicing out for peace must be f&%$/ing hard right now. A voice in a desert among many loonies. I think you are brave and i agree with you that secularism is probably the only way to resolve anything, and we are all to blame in that situation. Religious maniacs all over the world ought to be put out of power. Religion is for personal use and should never be mixed with politics, or else we all go to gehena.


Peace

[ReD_MuZe]

Actually my voice is not in such a desert. most people here want peace, even if most of them are for this specific war - in their eyes it is an act of pure defense.

the difference is on how we think things can be solved.

[garyb]

The funds are coming from those that dont want a solution.
So the citizens in Palaestina/Israel are just guinea pigs left clueless.
Until they get a clue that they hurt their own flesh, their own blood spills, their own souls suffer.

Somehow i can only agree to the cynics saying: wait until they killed each other, until all the creativity is gone from life to death practices.
But I dont believe that this is the way out.

bullseye.

[Shroomz~>]

A 1 tonne bomb dropped to take out a top 5 Hamas Leader flattens a 4 floor building killing the target + at least 2 of his 4 wives & 4 of his children. That's what you call precautionary!!

Btw Assaf, re - the 'palis' dancing in the streets.... Nobody disputes that, but there have also been reports of many IDF soldiers dancing, cheering etc on top of IL tanks amassed at the Gaza border when missiles & bombs supposedly struck their targets in Gaza & plumes of smoke appeared.

As for counting the deaths - I'm a firm believer that it's very important that every lost life is counted & not to be shrugged off as irrelevant, no matter what anyone's opinion is, perhaps even more so when the death toll seems disproportionate as it did in Lebanon.

Well, the Israeli ground forces have apparently moved in now, so lets see how the destruction they inflict compares with the targets they achieve.

[ReD_MuZe]

A 1 tonne bomb dropped to take out a top 5 Hamas Leader flattens a 4 floor building killing the target + at least 2 of his 4 wives & 4 of his children. That's what you call precautionary!!

It was his choice to become a shahid, and ti turn his family into shahids. IDF has informed him his house will be bombed, and he refused to leave, taking his family with him.
just to be informed: this is a person who has killed HUNDREDS of israelis through the 80's till now. its a person who sent his own son to a suicide mission in israel. i have no pity for such murderers.
the blood of his family is on his hands.

Btw Assaf, re - the 'palis' dancing in the streets.... Nobody disputes that, but there have also been reports of many IDF soldiers dancing, cheering etc on top of IL tanks amassed at the Gaza border when missiles & bombs supposedly struck their targets in Gaza & plumes of smoke appeared.

"reports" heh. none of my friends are happy to kill arabs. you dont need reports for the massive street parties with hundreds of thousants of people eating cake for the deaths of innocent civilians.
and if some soldiers are glad they hit the right target - in my eyes its not comparable. besides those soldiers are 19 year old kids. with very little space for self thoughts

As for counting the deaths - I'm a firm believer that it's very important that every lost life is counted & not to be shrugged off as irrelevant, no matter what anyone's opinion is, perhaps even more so when the death toll seems disproportionate as it did in Lebanon.

yes in that field i guess the fundamentalists "win" since they would sacrifice their own people much easier.
the hamas can stop the war any time it wants, just by stopping the rocket shooting.

Well, the Israeli ground forces have apparently moved in now, so lets see how the destruction they inflict compares with the targets they achieve.

im not justifying the war, but you need to understand that the civilian lives in gaza and in lebanon are not only the responsibility of IDF. they are mainly the responsibility of their own organizations who use them as human sheilds. i don't see anyone making demonstrations against the hamas or hizbollah storing weapons in schools hospitals homes and mosques, yet in my eyes they are the main reason for this whole mess - organizations that use violence as their only language. else we could have had peace with the fatah.

I have seen footages of the demonstrations in europe on youtube - with calls to kill the jews, and raising hizbollah flags. comparing israel to the nazis and so on. this is not a demonstration for peace, not a demonstration against the war. it is a muslim/arabic demonstration for the destruction of israel. those who greet you with the words "peace to any who follows the guidance".

if you would have lived in sderot for these past 8 years, i guess you would have really wondered why your government isn't doing anything to those constantly bombing your house.

In tel aviv there was a big demonstration to stop the war, there were alot of israelis waving palestine flags. any palestinian doing that would have been killed on the spot in gaza. unfortunately our cultures are NOT comparable. and so are our methods.

IMO the war must stop. not for the sake of the hamas and their supporters, but for the sake of the palestinian and israeli civilians who want peace.
i don't pity those who want me dead, and i don't party when they die.
lets hope this new ground action will end fast and with the least civilian casualties.
peace!

[Shroomz~>]

A 1 tonne bomb dropped to take out a top 5 Hamas Leader flattens a 4 floor building killing the target + at least 2 of his 4 wives & 4 of his children. That's what you call precautionary!!

It was his choice to become a shahid, and ti turn his family into shahids. IDF has informed him his house will be bombed, and he refused to leave, taking his family with him.
just to be informed: this is a person who has killed HUNDREDS of israelis through the 80's till now. its a person who sent his own son to a suicide mission in israel. i have no pity for such murderers.
the blood of his family is on his hands.

Btw Assaf, re - the 'palis' dancing in the streets.... Nobody disputes that, but there have also been reports of many IDF soldiers dancing, cheering etc on top of IL tanks amassed at the Gaza border when missiles & bombs supposedly struck their targets in Gaza & plumes of smoke appeared.

"reports" heh. none of my friends are happy to kill arabs. you dont need reports for the massive street parties with hundreds of thousants of people eating cake for the deaths of innocent civilians.
and if some soldiers are glad they hit the right target - in my eyes its not comparable. besides those soldiers are 19 year old kids. with very little space for self thoughts

As for counting the deaths - I'm a firm believer that it's very important that every lost life is counted & not to be shrugged off as irrelevant, no matter what anyone's opinion is, perhaps even more so when the death toll seems disproportionate as it did in Lebanon.

yes in that field i guess the fundamentalists "win" since they would sacrifice their own people much easier.
the hamas can stop the war any time it wants, just by stopping the rocket shooting.

Well, the Israeli ground forces have apparently moved in now, so lets see how the destruction they inflict compares with the targets they achieve.

im not justifying the war, but you need to understand that the civilian lives in gaza and in lebanon are not only the responsibility of IDF. they are mainly the responsibility of their own organizations who use them as human sheilds. i don't see anyone making demonstrations against the hamas or hizbollah storing weapons in schools hospitals homes and mosques, yet in my eyes they are the main reason for this whole mess - organizations that use violence as their only language. else we could have had peace with the fatah.

I have seen footages of the demonstrations in europe on youtube - with calls to kill the jews, and raising hizbollah flags. comparing israel to the nazis and so on. this is not a demonstration for peace, not a demonstration against the war. it is a muslim/arabic demonstration for the destruction of israel. those who greet you with the words "peace to any who follows the guidance".

if you would have lived in sderot for these past 8 years, i guess you would have really wondered why your government isn't doing anything to those constantly bombing your house.

In tel aviv there was a big demonstration to stop the war, there were alot of israelis waving palestine flags. any palestinian doing that would have been killed on the spot in gaza. unfortunately our cultures are NOT comparable. and so are our methods.

IMO the war must stop. not for the sake of the hamas and their supporters, but for the sake of the palestinian and israeli civilians who want peace.
i don't pity those who want me dead, and i don't party when they die.
lets hope this new ground action will end fast and with the least civilian casualties.
peace!

Assaf, I'm not on one side or the other. I was trying to put some balance into the discussion, but I don't think this is necessarily the place for the discussion anyway, so I'll maybe leave it at that. I sincerely wish you well & hope that I'm proven wrong in thinking that this current situation as it unravels can only cause more trouble for Israel & other countries friendly towards it.

best regards,
Mark

[ReD_MuZe]

Mark indeed it will cause more trouble !

that is exactly why the war is wrong.
that exactly why at this time we don't need to speak against israel nor palestine. but for peace!
its funny how people get a reminder for how peace is important only in times of war.

i'm sorry if i'm hogging the thread, its just that its close to my heart.
I think its important for people like you mark to speak out! but counting of lives and trying to guess who is more evil than the other is not the right direction perhaps.

better arguments are needed. alot of answers and suggestions on how to really deal with such a thing
for both sides. else it just enflames the ground.

[sonicstrav]

The differences are too fundamental between both for there to ever be peace. It's just going to escalate and get worse.

I'm very pessimistic about the world in the next 50 years - I think the conflicts in the world are going to reach truly catastrophic levels - religion (fundamentalism / extremism) / differences in wealth and over-population being the root cause.

Only the peace approach is the way - but seems so difficult / almost impossible now

[ReD_MuZe]

actually i feel otherwise.
i think there is hope. i think the catastrophe is happening already. and soon we will see a way out of this mess. together.
i think there is hope. but what can i say one has to be optimistic to live here ...

[sonicstrav]

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread. ... 0104120604

[next to nothing]

First of all, i hope this shitstorm ends pretty quickly, allthough i see clear indications that these next 16-24 hours is going to be a bloody mess.

I understand you are "safe" Assaf, which is good.

Now, i just have to comment on something.

"they are mainly the responsibility of their own organizations who use them as human sheilds. i don't see anyone making demonstrations against the hamas or hizbollah storing weapons in schools hospitals homes and mosques, yet in my eyes they are the main reason for this whole mess - organizations that use violence as their only language. else we could have had peace with the fatah."

First of all i havent seem any other proof of hiding stuff in mosques etc. besides the IDF Youtube videos. On the human shield bit, i know Israeli F-16s dropped leaflets warning about bombardment before the attacks, asking the civillians to refuge their homes. Now, what i am curious of is where do Israel want them to go? The gaza strip is pretty much hermetically sealed, and with approx 1.500.000 (approximately 50% of them are 15 years old or younger) inhabitants living om 370 sq km , their options are rather limited. Thats an area the size of Las Vegas, only three times as many inhabitants.

And with truckloads of Aid being stopped at the border, the numbers of casualties will rise. There is an estimated need for 400 trucks of aid pr.24 hours needed, and approximatley 80 is let thru the borders each day. As reported by two norwegian doctors working there at the moment other clinics have allready used their curtains for bandages.

A lot of what i am writing is probably based on biased info (as is much else of what is written in this thread). Its not easy getting news from a conflict where the main actor has effectively locked out all international journalists.

So violence have many sides. The Quassams launched at israel is not only coming from Hamas lines, Fatah (and other small groups) are launching as well. It was (from their point of view, not mine) a reaction to the idiotic behaviour of the international community demanding a "free election", only faced with a result other than what they hoped for, so they closed down all diplomatic channels towards the legally elect goverment. Violence is then considered the only way to fight the occupying power (again i dont agree with this, just to make that clear).

And by the way an israeli grenade just hit the Gaza vegetable market. Numbers, numbers, numbers.

[ReD_MuZe]

ola next to nothing!

yes, we all have "biased" information but what information isn't biased?

about the mosques - yes, IDF footage's of mosques giving off secondary explosions after being bombed, is not enough to convince me, however i do live in jaffa, and i do know the state of mind of the fundamental muslim from up close, to fully believe it. for them its a holy war, and mosques are part of the game.
jihad and shahids is not our invention you know....

as for the second question, you might wanna check the gaza strip map. gaza is densely populated but not the areas around it. but its not like i support this in any way even if they do have space to flee to.

the matter of the aid trucks - well israel is supplying FULL humanitarian support - food, medicine and so on, and treating their wounded in its own hospitals. i can understand the militaries wishes to control foreign traffic. israel as the ocupying entity has the duty to take care of the occupants, and thats what its doing.

Fatah are not launching anything at israel, gaza has been "clensed" from fatah 3 years ago after the coo. the only fatah people in gaza are deep underground. the Quassams are being fired by other military organizations not just the Hamas. indeed. but the hamas has control over these organisations, it is the government of gaza, and it is calling for a full blown jihad to the end.

so thats some of the biased israeli side of the story.
but what can i say? each "progress" that is made pinches my heart. i just hope that this war will end asap.

[next to nothing]

Hi again Assaf!

I agree IL wants to control the traffic into Gaza Strip, but you have to look hard back in history if you want to find any conflict that international journalists have been denied access to physically. Right now there are only Palestine Journalists inside, and thats not good for any side.

About Israel supplying full medical care to its wounded, i take it you are talking about Israelis transported across the border? Or do you mean returned wounded soldiers? Because from the reports i hear its not easy to get taken care of in Gaza Strip. One thing is to supply aid for its own citizens, but its pretty cruel to deny aid of others. Especially with the wide use of white phosphorus as you can see in pictures all over from the artillery attacks, and the use of bombs with unnecessary powerful shockwaves in densly populated areas. Both these means of warfare is resulting in a large number of amputees, which is hard to handle without equipment.

However, i do hope this will end soon. There wont be peace in a long time though, i think we all know this. Hamas/Others will keep launching rockets into IL and IL will keep occupying. Thats the nature of this conflict. Both side have their extremist side, willing to educate their children to continue killing until the Occupant is wiped out or the God given land is in the right hands. Im sorry.


Best of luck to You Assaf, and i hope i time will prove me wrong about the last paragraph, sooner rather than later.

Best regards and Best whishes for the future,
piddi.

[garyb]

i don't want to hurt feelings or make enemies with certain to be misunderstood words, but when the bloodlust has settled, both sides may have peace, even if it's just a graveyard.

the obvious just can't be talked about in public.

another of the things that makes me sooooo saaaddd.....

[Shroomz~>]

The pioneers of a warless world
are the youth that refuse military service.

[Shroomz~>]

This quote's a belter but not directly related to the current Israeli situation.

...

Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

[ReD_MuZe]

Hi again Assaf!

I agree IL wants to control the traffic into Gaza Strip, but you have to look hard back in history if you want to find any conflict that international journalists have been denied access to physically. Right now there are only Palestine Journalists inside, and thats not good for any side.

there actually are foreign journalists in gaza, as well as un surveyors. not alot tho. not enough...

About Israel supplying full medical care to its wounded, i take it you are talking about Israelis transported across the border? Or do you mean returned wounded soldiers? Because from the reports i hear its not easy to get taken care of in Gaza Strip. One thing is to supply aid for its own citizens, but its pretty cruel to deny aid of others.

no im actually talking about palestinian citizens and soldiers wounded and transported across the border. israel is not denying aid from anyone. it is giving aid, however twisted as it might seem to kill and then feed, thats what's happening. all of the food and medicine supply to gaza were always coming from israel, and still are. just not foreign aid. regarding "humanitarian aid" - israel is taking care of it. it has to, its part of the geneva convention, and they are being ultra careful now not to crush the "consensus" in the west about this action.

Especially with the wide use of white phosphorus as you can see in pictures all over from the artillery attacks, and the use of bombs with unnecessary powerful shockwaves in densly populated areas. Both these means of warfare is resulting in a large number of amputees, which is hard to handle without equipment.

thats why the ones who can afford it (ie not hamas people, becouse they will be arrested) are transported to israel. they have 2500 wounded, most of them are taken care of in hospitals in israel.

However, i do hope this will end soon. There wont be peace in a long time though, i think we all know this. Hamas/Others will keep launching rockets into IL and IL will keep occupying. Thats the nature of this conflict. Both side have their extremist side, willing to educate their children to continue killing until the Occupant is wiped out or the God given land is in the right hands. Im sorry.

true but sad
however peace with the west bank is close, and there are peace talks with syria, im actually pretty optimistic. this is the first time we have backup of arab states for something like this, and it seems that the moderate arab nations will be quite please to see the hamas gone. i personally expected many more deaths.
i agree that we both have our extremists, but the current israeli government is not about the "full israel" this is a government who left gaza, who is willing to negotiate on jerusalem(!!!!) and give away the territories and the golan heights . if you want to see an extremist government, just wait 2 months after the elections, we will have bibi as prime minister - extreme right party. and we have the hamas to thank for that :Z
instead of developing gaza, build schools hospitals universities, they build bombs. instead of taking advantage of a government who is willing to negotiate they target missiles and talk about the destruction of israel.
the only way that the current government or anything to the left of it is going to stay, is id we "win" the war, ie - disable the hamas - thus proving to the israeli public that leaving gaza 3 years ago was not a mistake.

(i know what ur thinking garyb and ur probably right )

the fact that israel has chosen the worst possible tactics for dealing with the hamas, doesnt mean that the hamas doesnt have to be dealt with. it is in every sense a terrorist group, that targets civilians only.

Best of luck to You Assaf, and i hope i time will prove me wrong about the last paragraph, sooner rather than later.

i hope you are wrong for the sake of us all, because this can end badly not just in israel but all over the world.
however, i think it is not likely that you are, i just like to think its still possible .

[ReD_MuZe]

now its gotten out of proportion completely

[Zer]

There never has been proportion. And what will be the result? More violence. If the people wanted peace, they would remain in silence. But when I shoot my neighbour, I`ve to be ready for his payback. Just that simple. If a minority in my country kills other people and I don´t declare myself clearly, I stick with them. Just that simple and regardless of the country.

[next to nothing]

I don't know what to say. Earlier today, IL Embassy's Aviad Ivri Stated the following:

"During the last 8 years, and 8000 rockets, 18 Israelis were murdered by Hamas and hundreds were wounded. Hundred of thousands, including children and women, were traumatised because of the rockets and the sirens warning them against the rockets. "

Proportions are gone long time ago. I cant see how this can be defended at all. I have no idea what kind of superweapons Hamas have hid in the 2 UN schools IL bombed within the last 24 hours, but they must be very powerful if they are worth killing 25-40 people, mostly women and children according to witnesses (again, numbers are of course uncertain).

I think its now at a stadium of no return. Hamas might be weakened but the hatred in the Palestine people towards Israel is probably stronger now amongst the commoners than it has been for a long time.