it's getting cold...

[Shayne White]

I totally agree with GaryB. The earth has been naturally warming and cooling in various cycles for thousands of years. Think of how fertile places like Iraq, Israel, and northern Africa used to be without man-made irrigation (we have evidence of extensive vegetation buried in the Sahara Desert), back when the earth had a considerably different climate than now.

However, the earth is not currently warming half as much as people think, considering that:

-This winter, much of the ice lost in the Arctic has come back
-The last two years there were hardly any hurricanes in the Caribbean, resulting in a massive drought in the American south
-Baghdad had snow
-Hundreds of people died in Vietnam this winter from a huge, unexpected freeze

But, if it ends up that we really are having substantial global warming, it still isn't man-made -- the sun is going through a heat cycle. Right now, Mars is experiencing global warming as well: its polar ice caps are melting! So is that caused by automobiles and factories on Mars?

The President of the Czech Republic recently said that the global warming scare is the new Communism, designed by big-government advocates wanting control over every aspect of people's lives and activities. Having lived under the control of the Soviet Union, I guess he knows Communism when he sees it. We're seeing it right now with the recent U.S. federal ban on incandescent light bulbs, forcing us to use toxic, mercury-filled florescent bulbs. Is this trip really necessary?

It's time to get back to the principles that made the free world great: that we are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among them are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And none of that is causing global warming.

It's a good discussion though.

Shayne

[BingoTheClowno]

But, if it ends up that we really are having substantial global warming, it still isn't man-made -- the sun is going through a heat cycle. Right now, Mars is experiencing global warming as well: its polar ice caps are melting! So is that caused by automobiles and factories on Mars?

That is one ignorant argument that gary used before. The retort to it is simple, you cannot compare the historical climate statistical data from Mars obtained from a satelite orbiting Mars for the past couple of years, with the statistical data from Earth taken from ice cores more than 740,000 years old, tree rings and other sources.

[Shayne White]

...with the statistical data from Earth taken from ice cores more than 740,000 years old, tree rings and other sources.

Well, here's where we get into the biggest disagreement of all. The earth is only around 6,000 years old. So the data showing weather patterns from hundreds of thousands of years ago is faulty to begin with.

Edinburgh, Scotland, used to have the same climate a thousand years ago that London has now. That's probably a more accurate indication of climate than hypothetical readings from ice based on a long-disproved world view.

Back in the 1700s there were lots of people wailing about the population bomb and how half of mankind would starve within fifty years or so. Back in the 1970s liberals were moaning about global cooling (!) and how we were going to run out of oil in twenty years. Then they changed their minds and decided to go with global warming. Now it's "climate change." And we're still going to run out of oil in twenty years.

Here's the real scoop: God designed the Earth to sustain human life. We should take reasonable steps to take care of it (like recycling and eating organic food), but stopping civilization altogether, which is the goal of the global warming theorists, is dangerous and preposterous.

Shayne

[astroman]

soon you will provide me with reliable data about measuring stations monitoring each and every volcano on this planet and it's emissions, including deep sea stuff and of course other geological activities that might be relevant in this context.

It's a matter of fact that the whole planet is a drifting environment - near polar Spitzbergen was close to the equator once, the Mediterranean Sea has dried out completely and again was flushed from the Atlantic Ocean.
There have always been a few thousand miles flooded by nature, things have burnt down to the ground and regrown.

The smart simulators will tell you that it doesn't take more than the Tibetian Highland completely filled with snow to bring the next full blown ice-age on it's way, takes a few 10k years but it will happen.

And of course we all have an exact understanding of the heat and radiation balance of the sun, yes we do...

Wtf is this race and it's so called scientific elite considering itself ?
The center of the universe ? Wasn't that idea abandoned with Galileo ?

cheers, Tom

[Me$$iah]

. The earth is only around 6,000 years old.

now that is funny

[Liquid Len]

The earth is only around 6,000 years old. So the data showing weather patterns from hundreds of thousands of years ago is faulty to begin with.

Wow! So the science of evolution (with its many implications towards biology, biochemistry, geology, etc) is 100% fraud. Is the theory of electricity (remember, it's just a theory) also faulty? Good thing that the equations allow us to make microchips anyways. BTW did Adam and Eve have navels?

stopping civilization altogether, which is the goal of the global warming theorists, is dangerous and preposterous.

Umm, something here is preposterous, alright. Do you really think people have such a malicious intent?

[garyb]

people keep replying with the ready-made rhetoric instead of just using the grey matter in their own heads. the hell with the emotional response. the FACT is:

THE LAST MINI ICE AGE WAS BETWEEN 1400 AND 1700AD(approx).

THAT'S ONLY A FEW HUNDRED YEARS AGO. BEFORE THAT, TEMPERATURES WERE CONSIDERABLY WARMER THAN THE CURRENT TEMPERATURES.

THIS IS FACT.

most of europe in the middle ages didn't even have a hearth in the house in the middle ages because it was WARM outside.....

why do people keep talking about 10,000 years, 100,000 years when the evidence of extreme temperature variability is within the last 400?


hubird, you old smarty pants, if there isn't a ruling elite, howcome the money and resources are still in the same hands as 500years ago? here it was explained quite well in 1976. i own the club of rome documents saying that global warming will be used to institute a global government. how come all of the people telling you about this horrible situation are all royals, bankers and oil men? when actual science and real data are presented, they are ignored, why? why have people lost the ability to think for themselves and why do they trust the same folks who made all the messes to clean the messes up?

BRING ON THE WARMING!!!!!
it's too cold here anyway. this is the coldest and wettest winter in southern california in years judging by my freezing fingers....

[Immanuel]

oh yeah, rape and pillage!

Thanks, that was a good laugh!

[garyb]

all this love of global government and authority reminds me of The Prisoner, specifically the episode Chimes of Big Ben where number 2 explains that one day the whole world will be the Village.

Village denizens LOVE their keepers, or else...

[hubird]

old smarty pants?

I don't deny the existence of a (old) ruling elite, just like I don't deny the existence of powerfull unions, Greenpeace, Amnesty, Poetin, or Al Quida even, etc.
It's a dynamic proces, even if the elite always hold the same clans.
The idea that the elite can do with the rest of the world what it wants whatever we do is heavily exaggerated.
Therefor the world processes are too complicated and chaotic.

Who stopped the Vietnam war?
The public, gotten wise by the medea reports.
Bush was forced to confess he lied about the existence of mass destruction weapons in Irak.
He didn't do that voluntary...

About the time scale: you also mentioned often the long term climate changes.
Yet, a scale of a few hundred years leaves enough room for tremendous changements in political sense.
At the moment we suffer from the heritage of colonialisme, but in 70 years we also made a few steps towards a more peaceful world.
How would that be then after a 400 years?

Common sense isn't the way to go anyway.
History proves that.
It's only since recent that there is a movement to the view that all humans are part of the one clan we have on the world, including with a lot of leading political forces.
That's totally new.

Could you think of a war between two nabour states of the US?
No, and the same for Europe, tho Servia didn't get it yet (Servia isn't Europe anyway yet).
The next step is to export this principle to the rest of the world.

Only wish relegion wasn't so important for the less privilaged part of the world population, meaning the Islamitic world.It's the cohesive element which binds those masses to one identity.
And the funny thing is, if they once get prosperous also, the role of religion will be forced back in life, just as it did with the most of us in modern industrial countries.

[garyb]

those in charge have thier own agenda that may not agree with yours, vis veitnam. it's a fact that the gulf of tonkin incident(that was the offical start of the war)was staged.

i do like the optimism. i do see it as genuine. powerfull unions, Greenpeace, Amnesty, Poetin, or Al Quida even serve the elite, directly or indirectly.

it's you(and me) that is being farmed.

as to religion, your religion is the state. how is that a less destructive force? the state always promises peace and safety and always delivers war and oppression..

the reason that states fight is because their elite wish it so. not because the slaves...errrr....slavs are just inferior.

hubird, i know what you like about order and i like it as well. the order is supposed to serve humans, not the other way around. there's no way that those who aren't even named but run things will ever be servants, so their order will always be a fraud and a murder.

[Zer]

Do you really think, someone is in chrage of the climate and everything? Blame it on your god and it wouldn`t help, blame it on your second god mammon and it still wouldn`t help anything. So the only question is...what did you do to preserve your country?

[siriusbliss]

Do you really think, someone is in chrage of the climate and everything? Blame it on your god and it wouldn`t help, blame it on your second god mammon and it still wouldn`t help anything. So the only question is...what did you do to preserve your country?

There sure is an effort to control weather. Also movements on buying up or controlling bodies of water.
re: what I did to preserve my country...everything I could, but I've been vastly outnumbered

Greg

[garyb]

ditto.

btw zer-about weather control, yes, it exists. there are treaties covering it. but if you think i'm saying that global warming is weather control, no, i'm not saying that. weather control is local(which can mean a huge area, the earth is even more huge). warming is global. or not....definitely there are changes in weather patterns(which isn't surprising since the gulf stream has shifted, perhaps HAARP can influence that, perhaps not). the weather will change from cold to hot to cold to hot again with or without human assistance. what the Club of Rome documents say is that global warming, the idea itself could be the catalyst, since it's much easier to utilize than say the idea of spacemen(geneticly modified people) coming to earth and posing a global threat(i couldn't make this stuff up, my imagination isn't that good. i have the books from these guys). global warming would be the new boogieman.

protect my country? there's a plan to eliminate 6 billion people(United Nations Agenda for the 21st Century), and it's being made to look like gladness and helpfullness. millions and millions refuse to stop masturbating long enough to pay attention to the psycho murders public, in-your-face communications with each other because most people aren't really evil, and they can't believe that anyone else could really be evil. who's gonna save mankind?

[garyb]

[for Zer]

behold Mammon-Ra!

Ordo Ab Chao

behold the Shining Eye of Lucifer

[garyb]

what part about the USA is on the same program as Europe don't you get?

global government is already in existance for many years. did you watch the clip from the movie network made in 1976, where they explain the global system? just because it hasn't been officially announced, don't think it's not in operation. this is how it's done, set up the system, explain why it's great, but the ignorant ones are trying to stop it(as though it's not in existance), get the public to beg for it, announce it's formation. if there's no global government, then how can the hague prosecute anyone? what is interpol? how can the UN, the EU or the NAU have any real authority?

globalism is the solution to nothing except for concentrating power into even fewer hands. the people pushing globalism are the same ones who pushed everything that has become a problem, every economic policy, technological choice, every war and famine, every false leader, every Bush, Alexander, Hitler, Stalin and Mao, yet they blame the common man for following their lead, often at the barrel of a gun or point of a blade. now you want to follow them into the neo-fuedalism of agenda21....6 billion gone, what a wonderfully inhumane thought.

the problem is NEVER the common man. the common man never invented mass production of automobiles, skyscrapers, plastic or nuclear waste. nerve gas and biological weapons like anthrax and AIDS did not come from the common man, neither did crack or ghettos. mutually assured distruction was not the common man's idea, nor was Eugenics. i never saw the common man pouring hundreds of thousands of gallons of old nerve gas into the atlantic ocean either. nope, all these things came from upstairs, the guys in charge. the ones that always shift the blame and stay in charge no matter what happens to humanity as a whole. blue bloods aren't untouchable, but their subjects are afraid to hold them responsible, just as for thousands of years.

during world war two the same corporations ran weapons and infrastructure production in both allied and axis countries. there were even members of pairlement, congress and hitler's inner circle on the payroll together. Rothschild banks funded BOTH sides. boy, are people gullible....

now, the blame is shifted to the common man again. the earth is hot because people are sooo greedy. noooooo, folks who have $30,000 a month personal elictric bills(al gore) are greedy and they can't change the fact that the earth WILL get hotter and colder, people or no people. what is the queen's electric bill like anyway? the super rich, super elite, royal types are the cause of it all. they are completely psychopathic and they are doing their best to make psychopathy the norm. really though, it's the abberation. it's just that the system mirrors it's makers and rewards lying, psychopathic behavior over normal, human, loving, tribal behavior(every member of the tribe is valued). that makes psychopathic behavior seem normal and common. TV, Movies and Music extoll the virtues of psychopatic heroes like ganster rappers and James Bond. sure, the common folks enjoy the entertainment, the problem is that the entertainment lends a spirit of normallacy to a truly false reality....

green is a joke. green means envious or sickly. sustainability is a word coined by the Club of Rome, and written into policy by the UN's Agenda for the Twentyfirst Century, which is a happy looking plan, but is one that promises to kill 80-90% of all humans on the planet. this is truly disgusting at a time when human populations are leveling out and the Earth is nowhere near overloaded or overburdened, just misused. WE don't need to be satisfied with less, the b@stards who think they're better and more evolved than mere human beings need to settle for less!

[astroman]

good points, ...well not really that good regarding content, but worth considering anyway

cheers, Tom

[coc999]

Here in france , they did a kind of governmental ecological forum with many specialists , experts etc...to explain , debate and investigate how the society could be changed in a better way by creating what i they call ecologic economy.

One of the direct result was to make boost the car industry . Why ?
simply by the fact that if you now go to buy a ecologic engine car producing less co2 you can get your car for a cheaper price because the governement is giving you a ecologic bonus of about 1300 euros up to i think 1500 euros.

The result is more cars producing less co2 ! so by not doing any calculations the balance of co2 is the same ! car industry made a jump in production !
but the middle class continues to consume and produce co2 with free conscience.
Also as the government represent justice and equity for all , The rich guys driving 4 wheelers producing more co2 will pay in opposite 1500 to 2000 euros more ....haha they don't give a shit ! if a guy has 70000 euros to put in a range rover sport version , what means 2000 euros to them ?

by the way Tata auto in India has purchased the patent for the air engine car to a french engineer (former formula 1 engineer).
Solutions are there but higher evil greedy masters are watching there own interests , maybe a miracle will come from countries like india that have not too much oil and gas and that are not by their politic killing other countries to get energy.

crazy world !

Here in Nice today is a sunny day , let's go out to get some free sun power energy with my son

cheers

[Immanuel]

I don't know where I am about all this. I believe that in the end, we human beings usually just choose our truth. I have chosen to trust that the earth is round. But it is nothing but trust. I don't expect that I will ever get to really know. There are other things, which I know about. These are things I have experienced. Some of that knowledges may be flawed too.

Anyway one more for Gary: Do you remember when Castro said that bio fuel is bad? Basically, the crops used are the ones, which poor people might have a chance to sustain life on. Thus bio fuel leads to increased starvation.

[hubird]

Still no word on the need to strive for sustainable coexistense on earth.

I always read about the evil elites, but nothing about the needed change especially in the US.

It seems to be easier to have someone to blame.
Someone really almighty, evil and unreachable.
That allows to continue the own agenda regardless if it is an individuum a group or a state.

still nothing heard about change...with all respect, but only the same deterministic ahistorical story.

If all people wanne buy a car than it's planned by the elite, in fact we don't wanne have cars, but we are told to buy one (or two).
Yet the man Ford just invented the moving band production system to make the cars cheaper as a mass product.
Hitler was a setup by the elite (Krupps etc.), yet he and his creation got destroyed totally after a few years.

You are reverse analysing, and you will always find the proof of the pudding (it happened like it happened, so I must be right).
Remember, I don't deny the ruling class organises itself in official and less official organisations, the opposition also does (unions, German R.A.F., Al Quida).
That's normal, as it's logical.
We just need a free press to keep the balance.