Recording Drums

Jah Servant · Post by **Jah Servant** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:12 pm

Anybody using anything special for recording live drum kits at all?
I was thinking about getting Mackie's 8 channel onyx rackmount preamp to use for drums, but then I was thinking maybe there is something else I could use inside scope, anybody using Sharc One or SL9000 for drum recording?
Right now I'm running into a Behringer DDX3216 mixer and direct into scope, and I'm looking to improve somehow, any advice?

the19thbear · Post by **the19thbear** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:28 am

a good preamp first! ( and decent mic's) you can't improve, inside scope, what already "died" before scope..

well that's my opinion.

Post by **garyb** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:46 am

exactly.
the mackie is NOT a significant improvement. the A16 or an RME or Apogee AD/DA coupled with real high end mic pres(minimum quality the FMR RNP, but something much nicer like avalon, millenia, demeter, neve clone etc. would be even better) and great mics is what it takes, along with a good sounding, properly treated room. also, the drums themselves must be properly tuned and rattle free, a chore in itself. all this together makes awesome drums. now, how far do you want to go?

what mics are you using, how are they placed? what kind of room are you in? do the drums have good heads and are they well tuned?

it's true, garbage in, garbage out. you really can't fix a bad sounding set or recording with an eq or anything else. traditionally, the best recordings are always the proper mic and pre and nothing else(except compressors in the mix). the least amount of correction, devices and plugins needed=the best sounding mixes. when using effects and plugins to destroy a sound for an interesting color or texture, typically the best results come from sounds that have relatively pure signal paths(room, mic and micpre direct to "tape")....

my basic drum mic is a stereo pair of overheads or room mics and a kik and snare mic. for some music, i do mic all toms for extra presence, but i try to avoid going that far since tom mics will require gates at some point and gates are a hassle.....sorry i can't be more helpful....

Jah Servant · Post by **Jah Servant** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:26 am

thanks, I understand that the first things are the most important. I do want to upgrade my drum mics at some point as well, I'm using a shure set, their normal drum mic kit.

It's not that what I'm getting is bad or that anything is wrong with it, I just want to improve it. I wasn't sure if the sl9000 or sharc one would act like a pre amp in anyway to help things out. I was thinking of going with the A16 but I wasn't sure if there was some sort of a preamp plugin for scope that would help out more or if it has to be an outboard piece of gear. If there isn't one then maybe something should be developed like this, I think it'd be great.

I noticed a big difference between recording vocals through the behringer and when I got a focusrite voice master pro, so I'm assuming the same can be done for my drums as well. I'm just doing some research for future I want to make the best choice. The thing is with outboard gear, even if my setup changes for some strange reason, that still goes on. I just wanted to know how much of a difference the mackie or focusrite 8 channel mic pre would improve over the behringer really, I wish I had endless money to spend, it wouldn't be an issue, but there are limitations.

keep the discussion going, more input please

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:35 am

I bought an Audient Mico after hearing it locally on vocals and acoustic guitars, and was impressed.

I was using a high quality Crane Song but it was sold for 1600 USD !!

I didn't want to spend that much, but I can say that this mic pre using a Heil PR40 sounds pretty sweet.

I look for an accurate re production of the sound, no tube mics, etc. Just a non colored.

The Mico is a great way to get analog into the digital world. Then Scope can add whatever colors I want later.

http://www.audient.com/audient/product/mico

Jah Servant · Post by **Jah Servant** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:30 am

that unit looks nice Jimmy, but I'm hoping for something with 8 channels, which limits things a bit.

Post by **garyb** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:08 pm

the focusrite would be an improvement for sure, although the cheaper focusrite stuff isn't all that exciting. i'd get 4 RNPs and an A16.

here's a pretty cool 8channel mic pre

:
http://www.mil-media.com/hv-3d.html

krizrox · Post by **krizrox** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:09 pm

I have a slightly different perspective about this subject...

I use a Mackie mixer for everything except the overheads. For the overheads I use my dbx386 stereo mic pre.

None of this stuff is "hi end". It's all project studio grade quality stuff.

I use Audix Fusion series mics on the toms and overheads. A pair of EV 468's on snare top and bottom. An Oktava MC12 on hi hat. And usually a Shure SM81 on the ride. Also, for my studio kit I like the Sennheiser E602 on the kick. Sometimes I'll use my AKG212 but it depends on the kick.

Let me repeat, none of this stuff is hi-end. It's all mid-grade or lower stuff. I can't afford the really hi-end stuff and for the type of work I do here, that level of equipment is a waste of money.

I pride myself on my drum sounds and I've seen enough happy clients to know I must be doing something right when it comes to recording live drums.

More important that the mic pre or the particular mic is how you tune and prep the drums and how you play the drums in the first place. Everyone thinks there's some sort of magic studio trickery involved in getting good sounds in the studio but I know better. It's all in the hands of the artist and quality of the gear they use. The fact that I can get really good drum recordings from average grade equipment is testament to that fact.

I think if you get yourself the best equipment you can afford and learn how to hook it up and dial it in properly, then you should be golden. Learn how to tune drums and position mics. Don't be afraid to mic everything. Don't be afraid to use a 3 or 4 mic setup either. Tracks are cheap in the DAW world. No reason not to mic as much as you can and then decide later on what to keep or discard. I've learned over time it's better to err on the side of caution and mic everything. I have no control over the quality of drummer that comes in here so I find it's better to be safe than sorry. But that's just me.

You should be able to get good results with that Behringer mixer but I admit I'm not a huge fan of their stuff.

Post by **garyb** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:11 pm

well, that's something i definitely agree on....

the19thbear · Post by **the19thbear** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:41 pm

yep-- AGREED I would never buy a neve etc etc.. preamp. to expensive, and i dont believe anyone can really tell the difference in a final mix. But up to a certain level you do need at least "OK" mic pre's. In my ears behringer stuff is degrading, soundwise (i'm sur ethey did some ok stuff as well, but..)
I dont know the Mackie's 8 channel onyx, so i cant comment on the sound of that.
first: Good sounding drums! A MUST
next: ok mics, doesnt need to be anything fancy, but still above behringer quality.
Next ok mic pre's, above behringer quality.
AND i would use the best mics i have, in the best preamps i have on the overhead and snare mics.

Post by **garyb** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:54 pm

oh, but those top end mic pres DO make a dramatic difference(with a good sound to record in the first place), much more of a difference than an expensive mic(although the difference of a top quality mic on a top quality mic pre is truly stunning)....

Me$$iah · Post by **Me$$iah** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:54 pm

I think the rule with drums is simple

Its all about the room.

It doesnt matter if you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on mics, pres, desks and effects. None of it means nothing if your recording in a shitty room.

Get the space right ... evrything else falls into place

Post by **garyb** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:57 pm

you think?

the19thbear · Post by **the19thbear** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:28 pm

well garyB, seems like i have to test it somehow! Good news! I have never been overly impressed with hi end stuff, but then again, i havent heard much.. but well then.. better start selling my kidneys.. who needs two anyway??

and meesiah:
in my world (room

)
bad room & way expensive gear =crappy sound.
good room & way crappy gear= crappy sound.
good room & ok/way expensive gear=good sound.
the room matters, but cant replace good gear. never. period.

well.. i'll stop here... enough said about this drum stuff.. dont want this to turn into an endless discussion.

Me$$iah · Post by **Me$$iah** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:23 am

absolutley the better quality mics and pres etc you have the better...

~I mean obviously ......duh

all Im saying is the space in which you record drums is vital....

Imagine setting up in a gym or a bathroom of an understairs cupboard...
even with the excact same equpiment, all those spaces will sound different.

I think the room is much less fun to talk about than the latest high end toy.

Post by **garyb** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:44 am

yes.

Jah Servant · Post by **Jah Servant** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:18 am

all good points here, and like I said, I'm just looking to improve, I don't have a major problem with what I have, but I know it can be better. I was just wondering what other people were doing, if there was something in Scope that I could use as opposed to buying a new preamp. I believe Behringer mic pre's are lacking too, so I know things can sound better. Maybe if I get the money I'll get the Focusrite 828 pre amp, that one looks good, definately above the onyx, which I haven't heard myself but I'm told that the onyx mic pre's are really nice, anybody using one out there?

Stevil · Post by **Stevil** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:56 am

Right now I'm running into a Behringer DDX3216 mixer and direct into scope, and I'm looking to improve somehow, any advice?

is your shure set the 4 57's & a beta52?
what kind of configuration are you using?

i've improved my drum recordings by playing with different mic's & configurations. picking up relatively inexpensive mics & trying different arrangements. close micing everything, overheads, from the floor up, over the drummers shoulder... i'm currently using at2020's, cad e100's, 57's, 58's, AT pro25, beta52, sm7. nothing crazy expensive. i'm still using a pair of B ada8000's for pre's. getting a good understanding of the kind of sound i can get out of different mic's @ different angles until the 'high end' preamp budget kicks in.

if yer just using the shure set i'd recommend a pair of overhead condensers to fill out your sound as an improvement. the AT2020's are cheap, clean & seem to work well in small untreated rooms where a more expensive mic would reveal the lack of acoustic treatment.

bassdude · Post by **bassdude** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:19 pm

garyb wrote:
here's a pretty cool 8channel mic pre :
http://www.mil-media.com/hv-3d.html

Nice.... 130v for DPA's

With regards to micing drums, room is important but I find drum placement and mic technique is more where it's at.

Post by **garyb** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:50 pm

very important.