is sfp mode time consuming?

the19thbear · Post by **the19thbear** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:19 am

Whenever i read a post on planetz, about how good sfp mode is, i find myself wanting to start another project in sfp mode (i normaly use xtc mode with cubase sx3)... and i ended up doing that about 4-5 times lately.. but i allways find myself annoye.. ex i get lost in routing all the things, setting up different midi channels for different devices, setting up midi CC for other synths etc etc.. i find the mixer stm2244... Oh! planetz will slaughter me:D ... pretty annoying! if i want to make group tracks, i have to go to the matrix and go to the routing window and reroute.... well it just seems to mo that i spend far more time hooking things up instead of making music
Am i normal do i need to see a schrink on planetz?
I really want to use scope in sfp mode because of the flexbility and because of its supposed better sound.

I am NOT trying to say that sfp mode is bad! i am simply stating how i feel! because i really want to be a sfp convert! Please convert me!
maybe i just need to spend more time with sfp to get to know the mixer properly... It would be great if someone posted a "mix in sfp" tut. video...

thanks alot!

alfonso · Post by **alfonso** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:51 am

New procedures always take much more time before you master them. For me it's funnily the opposite, loading my template sfp projects and adapting them to my needs it's fast and natural.

I also need it because I use a lot of the modular as fx too, so I often have them inserted before the mixer, parallel connections, external fx further processed in scope....it much depends on what you need to do.

hifiboom · Post by **hifiboom** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:56 am

I use SFP mode without major problems.

(1) I recommend you to not use the big mixer stm24, take the stm16 its way cleaner and you have all channels infront of you, if you premix some stuff in cubase the missing 8 channels won``t be a problem.

(2) go to settings -> routing and set auto routing to
connect instruments/effects to seq source...

so the newer synths automatically connect to the midi seq source...

make a basic project with the stm16 and a seq midi source and some asio source....
connect all asio strips to the stm and let some free channels for scope synths

save it as default project:
go to scope settings -> Projects -> save project as default and save project as starup.

This should improve your workflow...

the19thbear · Post by **the19thbear** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:00 am

thanks hifiboom... so i should really go with the stm16 one! wow that is a small mixer, but as you say, alot cleaner and easier to look at!.. can phase align things in that mixer?... sorry i am not at my studio right now..

Just to make things clear, i'm looking for god way to make band oriented music.. not too many synths.
thanks alot everyone!
keep em comin!

Post by **garyb** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:45 am

i like the stn2448....it has all the control room functions i need as well as a dedicated monitor send, and it has 8 recording outs, which allows me to be able to make changes easily and handle live recording easily as well as mixing. i monitor EVERYTHING on the scope mixer, all programs, synths and external sources. when tracking(building songs), i use a stereo send from the sequencer to monitor playback. when mixing, i use multiple outputs from the sequencer(one per track, more or less).

you should use the stuff that makes things work best for you. this might take a bit of experimenting, but it's one of the nicest things about scope, that there are many ways of doing things....

hifiboom · Post by **hifiboom** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:25 am

the19thbear wrote:can phase align things in that mixer?...

for sure it has a phase button as most cw mixers....

But I don``t know what all this talk about phase in stereo mixing is all about.

Its totally overestimated ! as if you could hear if one channel is replayed 2 or 3 samples later than the other stereo channels.

its described in the creamware manuals about mixers also: phase is unimportant as long as you don`t mix multichannel recordings where you have 4 channels and the two backchannels have to be in phase correlation to the 2 front channels.

I tend to aggree to the stuff written in the CW manuals...

Its a difference if we talk about the phase stuff inside an algo. there it can make big differences surely. But thats another story....

the19thbear · Post by **the19thbear** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:34 am

well.. say i mix a drumtrack, and route it through the sfp mixers... each track on individual sfp mixerchannels.. then phase would matter

... correct me if i'm wrong though

but thanks!

hifiboom · Post by **hifiboom** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:26 am

why should it matter?

think of a drummer hitting the snare 3/44100 seconds later, would you hear it?

44100 samples per second so you have ~44 samples in a millisecond.

If two diffenrent stereo channels are loaded on different dsps, you will have a lag of 2 or 3 samples between some stereo channels(I`m not sure I have to look back into sdk manual).
Lets say the first 12 stereo chennels load on DSP A, and the other 4 on DSP B
So maybe your kick drum comes 2-3 samples earlier than your snare drum or the other way round, depending on which channel you are using....

thats 3/44 milliseond, so rougly spoken around the 10th part of a millisecond.
maybe even less...

the midi timing of most synths is much more worse than that....

the19thbear · Post by **the19thbear** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:30 am

10th of a milisecond... ok! i guess that wont matter at all!!
thanks for explaining!

zangsta · Post by **zangsta** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:55 am

Correct me if I´m wrong here, but phase-related problems relates to tracks with microphone-recorded material, and is not a timing problem as in a lag, but will affect sound and stereo image, right?
So 19th bears concern is valid, but is best corrected when sound-checking the drum-kit. It´s good to have a mixer where it´s possible to switch the phase on each mike in the set.

Jörgen

tgstgs · Post by **tgstgs** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:57 am

sfp or scp mode is worth to dig in!

if connected more than 1 channel with same source you should push the phasealignbutton to not loose high frequecny - if you hear the difference is another question

good vibes from vienna

voidar · Post by **voidar** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:23 am

Yes, I think it is time-consuming when doing regular DAW stuff. That's why I have prefered XTC-mode, even though it has its limitations.

I do flirt with going back to SFP though, especially with the increasing standard of hardware-insert possibilities in hosts (Live7, REAPER).
What bugs me though is the tiresome automation process, using MIDI.

the19thbear · Post by **the19thbear** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:32 am

excactly.. that is my main reason not to use sfp mode.
I cant automate stuff.... well if i wanted to, i had to draw stuff in cubase with the pencil tool... yuck!

hmmm... i dont know xtc mode is just so much more faster to me! because i juse it as a daw.
oh well.. maybe i'll give sfp mode another go..

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:36 am

voidar wrote: What bugs me though is the tiresome automation process, using MIDI.

i hope that is one of the things addressed in an update for Scope (won't be in Scope 5 though yet). However i have to say i just use the host to do most of the simple automation (like fading levels up and down etc.) so never really bother with the Scope automation too much. i would rather use Scope still, automation is a 'fancy' whilst Scope is the sound, and that's far more important.

About the phase issue: on my system switching it on hardly makes any DSP difference - so if it's not hogging much then there's no problem just leaving it on, whether you can hear it or not. i believe even analogue desks aren't always 100% phase aligned anyway.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:42 am

You could always record live midi control into cubase in realtime as you work & it then becomes automation without ever touching a pencil tool. Then you have all the cool stuff you can do with the recorded midi like offsetting or quantizing it, randomizing it etc etc.... Just a thought. You could also save certain midi controller ramps, manipulations etc that you think you'll use again & again as midi files that you can just load into any cubase project. Again, just a thought....

Kymeia · Post by **Kymeia** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:52 am

I use SFP mode exclusively. The only downside for me is having to use ASIO to record stuff. I have VDAT but I find the fact that it doesn't record stereo files too much of a pain to make much use of it.