Guys,
Whats the difference between the above?
I've seen lots of the original A16's for sale and wonder if they are worth considering.
Regards,
Simon
A16 - A16 Ultra?
here's an ironic description...
I'd only suggest one if you can either check it before purchase or you're familiar with a soldering iron. It's the 'classic' non-smd built style, so basically it's easy to service if you know how.
The input converters are 18 bit types of which 16 are used and it's suspected to have an extremely well designed clock circuit (suspected because no figures have been published)
According to Ali the new A16 ultra uses the same 24-bit AKM converters as the Scope 2nd generation boards - I can't comment on the latter, as I don't have one, but I like my (original) A16
Seems it has it's fans like the Blackface Adats have
cheers, Tom
as mentioned (see tech talk section) the old A16 may become a bit hot if there's not enough airflow around it (in particular with the fan turned off), so aging of parts may become a concern if a unit has been on duty for a long period of time.astroman wrote:...well, the old A16's clock circuitry is for sure the most impressive part of the content of the blue box.
It comfortably sits a bit aside in it's own dedicated space of the pcb, while the 48 5532 opamps, the respective 16 TDA-1305 D/A converters and their SAA-7367 A/D relatives sweat with the signal, tortured by 6 devilish stablizers that a sadistic engineer placed under their feet (below the main circuitboard)...
I'd only suggest one if you can either check it before purchase or you're familiar with a soldering iron. It's the 'classic' non-smd built style, so basically it's easy to service if you know how.
The input converters are 18 bit types of which 16 are used and it's suspected to have an extremely well designed clock circuit (suspected because no figures have been published)
According to Ali the new A16 ultra uses the same 24-bit AKM converters as the Scope 2nd generation boards - I can't comment on the latter, as I don't have one, but I like my (original) A16
Seems it has it's fans like the Blackface Adats have
cheers, Tom
Working on the next shipment. besides BOSE there is another big company in Montreal who wants to incorporate the A16 U into their big counsels to sell in Europe and NAscope4live wrote: All kidding aside, I will A/B them, but will there be any left after Bose is done buying them all up?
the demand never stop on these units. We shall raise the price
I would probably be the only one to agree w/ you Brotha' Man Ali. Similar specs on other units are much higher than the battleworthy A familia.
I am feverish to experiment w/ 96k on synth sounds. A friend of mine says the synths will gain a nice sheen, especially if psycho-acoustic treatments are minutely used. PsyQ really can help cut or boost on synths. Similar to the way filters work using a Q factor.
Maybe Sonic Core should turn up production on some more, using their name on it.
Face it my Brothas'. Yamaha, and all of the big boys cannot compete w/ Creamware and it's kind. There will never be a another value like we use, ever again. No company can make such a deep, sophisticated, reliable product combining hardware, and software for these prices. Just think about the guys who have DP, and some of the old Pros. They never dreamed this would last this long. What a fantastic investment in money, and sound.
Now Go Make Some Money, Or Have A Hella Time Just Playing, God Damn It !!!
I am feverish to experiment w/ 96k on synth sounds. A friend of mine says the synths will gain a nice sheen, especially if psycho-acoustic treatments are minutely used. PsyQ really can help cut or boost on synths. Similar to the way filters work using a Q factor.
Maybe Sonic Core should turn up production on some more, using their name on it.
Face it my Brothas'. Yamaha, and all of the big boys cannot compete w/ Creamware and it's kind. There will never be a another value like we use, ever again. No company can make such a deep, sophisticated, reliable product combining hardware, and software for these prices. Just think about the guys who have DP, and some of the old Pros. They never dreamed this would last this long. What a fantastic investment in money, and sound.
Now Go Make Some Money, Or Have A Hella Time Just Playing, God Damn It !!!
ali wrote:Working on the next shipment. besides BOSE there is another big company in Montreal who wants to incorporate the A16 U into their big counsels to sell in Europe and NAscope4live wrote: All kidding aside, I will A/B them, but will there be any left after Bose is done buying them all up?
the demand never stop on these units. We shall raise the price
Who's the other big company?
And i've never really understood why you have z-link. Can't firewire handle 16 channels at 24bit/96kHz?
It seems to me if Scope/A16u was setup to use firewire instead of z-link then you would have more sales with the A16u as a firewire based converter.
Stuart.
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Shayne White
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The Z-link interface is there so the A16U can interface directly to Scope cards. A standard FireWire connection could only interface to the computer OS and require its own drivers. Apparently CW was planning on adding a FireWire expansion to the A16U so that you could use it independently of Scope/ADAT. But, unfortunately, they filed for Chapter 11 (or the equivalent thereof) and that was the end of that. Maybe SonicCore can resurrect the dream. After all, if they came out with an expansion card, it would be compatible with all A16 Ultra's ever made!bassdude wrote:
And i've never really understood why you have z-link. Can't firewire handle 16 channels at 24bit/96kHz?
It seems to me if Scope/A16u was setup to use firewire instead of z-link then you would have more sales with the A16u as a firewire based converter.
The expansion idea was mentioned in the Scope Installation manual, BTW.
Shayne
Melodious Synth Radio
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Melodious synth music by Binary Sea
http://www.binary-sea.com
Well the girls have that fan driven version, I use the A8 live, and it sounded fine to me, but the A16 Ultra A/B/d through the headphones next to the A8 has a very noticable difference with first listen. I can assume that in Cubase 4 or any other recording app, there will be a noticable difference also.
I always assumed the low end specs of my headphones ( 20 to 20 ) were inaccurate, or just old. But they are mid grade headphones, so I put on the UE Pro10's, which BTW are stereo 3-way wireless InYoEar custom fitted. There is a huge difference, escpecially in the low end. It sounds so " round, and FAT " using the UE's. But even my Yamahas sounded better, so I will mix through the Ultra, and the UE's for live projects from now on.
I have also hooked up the Barbettas, w./ the stereo sub, and the Pro 3t rotary.
There is a large difference indeed, but this is a comparison of the A8, not the fan cooled A16 that the Hussies use. I will see that soon, and also A/B it. I bought that one on ebay for 400 USD last year, and only use the analog I/O's, but live it's fine also.
I am assuming that the A16 Ultras extra specs are giving this converter such a full, round sound. Even my Barbettas sounded fuller, and had more top end due to the noise floor difference.
I can only imagine this being a very good converter when recording. Usually live work doesn't display such a gap in quality. So when recording it will obviously be more noticable.
I always assumed the low end specs of my headphones ( 20 to 20 ) were inaccurate, or just old. But they are mid grade headphones, so I put on the UE Pro10's, which BTW are stereo 3-way wireless InYoEar custom fitted. There is a huge difference, escpecially in the low end. It sounds so " round, and FAT " using the UE's. But even my Yamahas sounded better, so I will mix through the Ultra, and the UE's for live projects from now on.
I have also hooked up the Barbettas, w./ the stereo sub, and the Pro 3t rotary.
There is a large difference indeed, but this is a comparison of the A8, not the fan cooled A16 that the Hussies use. I will see that soon, and also A/B it. I bought that one on ebay for 400 USD last year, and only use the analog I/O's, but live it's fine also.
I am assuming that the A16 Ultras extra specs are giving this converter such a full, round sound. Even my Barbettas sounded fuller, and had more top end due to the noise floor difference.
I can only imagine this being a very good converter when recording. Usually live work doesn't display such a gap in quality. So when recording it will obviously be more noticable.
DON'T TOUCH THAT CONTACT ! it would be very strange if there hadn't been a noticable difference between the 2 converter boxes - there is a completely different technology inside.
But the A8 and the fan-cooled A16 are identical, except for the number of channels of course, so your A8 impressions are valid for both - thanks for sharing
cheers, Tom
-
hubird
It was my static free mannequin.
My recently acquired MX8 is defective, and I have started bidding on another. Maybe Brotha' Man Mark will be able to help out also. www.markglinsky.com Manual Manor is a God send 4 purchases where no manual is included. Creamware always sends a manual, but power supplies must be scarce, as it was lacking one of those.
I am however able to send and receive MIDI on this, but I record left and right hand parts simultaneously. So it is useless as the display freezes at startup, and cannot send to dual DAW's or even one 4 that matter. It is awkward 4 me to record using only one hand. After all, if one can play Chopin Fantasie Impromptu, and Emerson's Take A Pebble, bass lines that only require one finger are pretty much subconciously performed. Strange as that sounds, it sets the groove up, as I add drums later. That way my kick, snare, and cymbal rides fill the spaces that are left. Most of my friends always do the percusion first, but I believe the keyboard and bass force a more unique groove this way. In the end it still sounds like the drummer sets the groove, but the placements of rhythm are less machine sounding. As quantinazation really kills the energy in real time sequencing.
This will not deter my recording this weekend though, as my main goal is to post my first original fusion jamm 4 my Brothas' here @ the Z. I hate to be modest, but it is like nothing you have ever heard, and it makes me cry when I play it. It's just so FAT thanks to JBowen's synths, and Larry Seyers Bass and Drums, which also have no acoustic equals IMHO. But oddly enough, I have passed on the SE-1x, in favor of The Brothas Of Britains C4T. This is a unique lead patch w/ effects, but I have tried to find a reason to use another, or mix w/ this, but the C4T has won the day. Isao Tomita should rather do an add for Shrooms and Sharc, instead of Arturia Moog Modular 100. Isao has obviosly not heard this preset yet. The synth just rolls right over the SE-1x using the SSB Modulator, and Celmos Tape Sim. The trick that the guys got right IMHO was the glide and smoothness of the LFO when slowly modulated. This is a serious lead patch. Guitarists fear such sounds, and rightly so as their pathetic digital FX have no FAT.
Just sustain the C4T so that it holds after your release of the key for 3 seconds. Detune it everywhere you can, add the FX, then play the awesomely precise Glide so that when you trill a whole step, the noodle glissando portion disappears. The synths modualtions will take over when you release the note, and as you hear it growling, the FX then come to play, as long as you use the SSB Modulator w/ the slowest longest phase preset, slightly tweaked however to taste. The glide on the 4th and 5th interval can be trilled as well and sounds so analogish. I can't stop playing my song, or this synthI. I even play while naked I love it so much.
My recently acquired MX8 is defective, and I have started bidding on another. Maybe Brotha' Man Mark will be able to help out also. www.markglinsky.com Manual Manor is a God send 4 purchases where no manual is included. Creamware always sends a manual, but power supplies must be scarce, as it was lacking one of those.
I am however able to send and receive MIDI on this, but I record left and right hand parts simultaneously. So it is useless as the display freezes at startup, and cannot send to dual DAW's or even one 4 that matter. It is awkward 4 me to record using only one hand. After all, if one can play Chopin Fantasie Impromptu, and Emerson's Take A Pebble, bass lines that only require one finger are pretty much subconciously performed. Strange as that sounds, it sets the groove up, as I add drums later. That way my kick, snare, and cymbal rides fill the spaces that are left. Most of my friends always do the percusion first, but I believe the keyboard and bass force a more unique groove this way. In the end it still sounds like the drummer sets the groove, but the placements of rhythm are less machine sounding. As quantinazation really kills the energy in real time sequencing.
This will not deter my recording this weekend though, as my main goal is to post my first original fusion jamm 4 my Brothas' here @ the Z. I hate to be modest, but it is like nothing you have ever heard, and it makes me cry when I play it. It's just so FAT thanks to JBowen's synths, and Larry Seyers Bass and Drums, which also have no acoustic equals IMHO. But oddly enough, I have passed on the SE-1x, in favor of The Brothas Of Britains C4T. This is a unique lead patch w/ effects, but I have tried to find a reason to use another, or mix w/ this, but the C4T has won the day. Isao Tomita should rather do an add for Shrooms and Sharc, instead of Arturia Moog Modular 100. Isao has obviosly not heard this preset yet. The synth just rolls right over the SE-1x using the SSB Modulator, and Celmos Tape Sim. The trick that the guys got right IMHO was the glide and smoothness of the LFO when slowly modulated. This is a serious lead patch. Guitarists fear such sounds, and rightly so as their pathetic digital FX have no FAT.
Just sustain the C4T so that it holds after your release of the key for 3 seconds. Detune it everywhere you can, add the FX, then play the awesomely precise Glide so that when you trill a whole step, the noodle glissando portion disappears. The synths modualtions will take over when you release the note, and as you hear it growling, the FX then come to play, as long as you use the SSB Modulator w/ the slowest longest phase preset, slightly tweaked however to taste. The glide on the 4th and 5th interval can be trilled as well and sounds so analogish. I can't stop playing my song, or this synthI. I even play while naked I love it so much.
well, the mixer has a peak level meter, that doesn't automatically fall back in the lowest signal range, so I'd guess the 'true' conversion noisefloor is (somewhat similiar to) what's displayed immediately after a margin reset.
On the other hand that could as well be a 'false' indicator if the display starts with the lowest possible value...
The channels aren't supposed to be open, so it's not accurate anyway - the correct termination load has to be supplied before measuring.
nevertheless the indicator is good enough to find obvious flaws like ground loops, bad powersupplies, interrupt problems etc.
Imho it looks like the external boxes capture noise beyond the audio range, either from the environment or from the supply regulation.
At least in my box all channels change their level almost synchronously in (arbitrary) 0.5 to 2 second intervals.
cheers, Tom
On the other hand that could as well be a 'false' indicator if the display starts with the lowest possible value...
The channels aren't supposed to be open, so it's not accurate anyway - the correct termination load has to be supplied before measuring.
nevertheless the indicator is good enough to find obvious flaws like ground loops, bad powersupplies, interrupt problems etc.
Imho it looks like the external boxes capture noise beyond the audio range, either from the environment or from the supply regulation.
At least in my box all channels change their level almost synchronously in (arbitrary) 0.5 to 2 second intervals.
cheers, Tom
Hi Tom, thank you 4 the reply.
The PSU's involved are the pc's (Tagan EasyCon 580W) and A16U's one, no cables are connected to anything except for mains and adat so I'd exclude ground loops probs.
There's a possibility that the noise I see could be determined by radiations of my CRT display, I'll try to move the A16U at a bigger distance.
...for the irony of the case, my scope card is unluckily located in pci slot 1, just in front of the vga cooler, so I'd expect a lot of noise to be captured by the card converters instead of by the A16U...
btw, what are your measurements?
Ciao
Fede
The PSU's involved are the pc's (Tagan EasyCon 580W) and A16U's one, no cables are connected to anything except for mains and adat so I'd exclude ground loops probs.
There's a possibility that the noise I see could be determined by radiations of my CRT display, I'll try to move the A16U at a bigger distance.
yes, I'd better test with null (short circuited) inputs, or maybe converters are the same but preamps are different.astroman wrote:
The channels aren't supposed to be open, so it's not accurate anyway - the correct termination load has to be supplied before measuring.
...for the irony of the case, my scope card is unluckily located in pci slot 1, just in front of the vga cooler, so I'd expect a lot of noise to be captured by the card converters instead of by the A16U...
btw, what are your measurements?
Ciao
Fede
it's very unlikely that your A16U picks up radiation via air, such stuff is preferably spread by cables (powerline, video).
A TFT is no better btw, as there's a ton of pulsewaves in it that may find their way into gear - just re-arranged power sockets to get a better separation.
My typical mixer display after margin reset starts at -84.8, then 80.8, 78.4 - as mentioned it only updates downward, in arbitrary intervals.
The house I live in is almost 100 years old and has a pretty strange electrical installation - very convenient with lots of outlets but probably all fed from a single source and of course not installed with 'pro-audio' in mind
cheers, Tom
A TFT is no better btw, as there's a ton of pulsewaves in it that may find their way into gear - just re-arranged power sockets to get a better separation.
My typical mixer display after margin reset starts at -84.8, then 80.8, 78.4 - as mentioned it only updates downward, in arbitrary intervals.
The house I live in is almost 100 years old and has a pretty strange electrical installation - very convenient with lots of outlets but probably all fed from a single source and of course not installed with 'pro-audio' in mind
cheers, Tom