ECC83 TubeWarmer .. no longer available

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:48 am

no longer available

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:07 pm

you got two different models? great! I personally like board0 for the rounder deep end, and board1 for a little more bass presence. Definitely going in my master outs. Would be nice to have in/out volume knobs so you can tweak for best drive amount. Subtle, but definitely creams up the mix. esp the bass.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:50 am

I should have mentioned that the board0 & board1 versions are exactly the same. I just made a version which loads on part of a single dsp on board0 & a version which loads on part of a single dsp on board1. Unfortunately when you load an instance of the board0 version then add an instance of the board1 version, they are not properly aligned to oneanother. I'd have to assign them onto specific dsps like I've done with the board 0 & 1 versions of the VP-8 to guarantee that they'd be aligned every time we load an instance onto each board. For example, if I assign these 2 versions of v0.8 to both load onto say, dsp 1 of the first 2 cards in a system, they'd be aligned properly & you could phase cancel signals between them.

Anyway, they're both the same device & should have exactly the same sound when fed the same source, but the device will generally react differently to different sounding sources, so maybe that's why you perceived a difference. It's also entirely possible that you could perceive a difference in presence due to the fact that these two board versions aren't aligned with oneanother when loaded on 2 CW cards.

Sorry for waffling on about dsp management, whatever that is.

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:07 pm

ah.. bleh. sample misalignment eh. pretty crazy how you can pick up on these things

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:31 pm

Yeh, I know, yawn, yawn, but phase alignment is important in certain studio (project & Pro) situations. Just because you hear that it doesn't matter doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. Creamware themselves admit in the sdk manual that a difference of 2-4 samples is equivalent to approx' 2cm perceived difference in MIC distance.

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:22 pm

oh nono, I meant it's strange how the minute difference actually did make a difference. It's subtle, but there. I can see how I can get mad if I had the perfect sound one second, and it got messed up after I loaded or reloaded some modules or whatever it is that causes these things to mess up. Course, it's not a show stopper but..

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:52 am

It sure warrents more testing, but yeah, it's not a show stopper, just something which plagues the mind.

voidar · Post by **voidar** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:44 am

I am having a hard time loading your plugins at higher samplerates. Probably because of the DSP-locking you are using, no?

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:27 pm

Yes, sorry about that. :(

It's something I've been thinking about & It is possible to build devices differently which will still be aligned & without phase problems (many ways no doubt). One way would be Instead of assigning a device like this to one dsp, I'd need to spread it over 2 or 3 dsps in series like I did in the VP-8. As long as there's only 30-50% of each dsp being used, then it should run at higher sample rates. I've not tested that yet, but unfortunately I'm too busy right now.

What size is your board0 card btw Voidar?

voidar · Post by **voidar** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:41 pm

their both 6dsp type 2cards.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:16 pm

bugger, you wont be able to run our next device when it's released then....

voidar · Post by **voidar** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:50 pm

What's it then?

What will I need?

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:43 pm

You'll need 15 dsps even although it doesan't use anywhere near that amount (the Xtra space wont be wasted tho, it'll still be available to synths & effects which don't assign to specific dsps)

It's a 12 channel mushroom

voidar · Post by **voidar** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:15 pm

Whoa. Well, I've been thinking about aquiring such a board anyway. Costs somewhat.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:26 am

in fact, any board bigger than 6dsp will run it ;)

bassdude · Post by **bassdude** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:29 pm

Shroomz, can you give an example of why the alignment is so critical. I'm just trying to understand. For instance when I send drum tracks to the vp8, the different mic positions will introduce delays anyway so this alignment is really no concern to me at all. And 2-3cm percieved difference? I don't know anyone that could detect that with their ears! 1ms delay is equivalent to about 12 inches. I don't know anyone that can stick there head in front of 2 sources together with one being 12inches behind the other and percieve any delay! The vp8 is 8 in 8 out indivdual isn't it? So why the concern that each channel must be perfectly aligned together. A 2-3cm difference would be about 0.1-0.2 ms which is nothing. So stereo linking might be something you want to have perfectly aligned but every single channel? I don't think even analog mixers are so perfectly aligned!

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:59 am

Hi Stuart,

bassdude wrote:Shroomz, can you give an example of why the alignment is so critical. I'm just trying to understand.

Well there's several reasons, but the main one is the cruncher of a question, "how much sample deviation between channels is acceptable". Well, none in a stereo device as far as I'm concerned. None in a multichannel device like a mixer either if I can build it in a way which reliably loads time after time, from day to day without the random phase alignment issues caused by a device being dynamically assigned accross dsps. I think that a stereo or multichannel device should be sample aligned in the sense that what you put in is aligned in the same way when it comes out. That means that I want to be able to feed all channels the same test tone, phase invert what comes out of any of it's channels & completely cancel that signal out with one of the other channels' outputs.

For instance when I send drum tracks to the vp8, the different mic positions will introduce delays anyway so this alignment is really no concern to me at all. And 2-3cm percieved difference? I don't know anyone that could detect that with their ears!

In no expert on drum micing, but I'm quite sure that micing drums or cabs from very specific positions is what gives you a certain sound, specifically when close-micing amp cabs where position, direction & distance are crucial.

I could quite easily build a device like the VP-8 or new VM mixer I'm working on which isn't reliable. It wouldn't be dsp locked, it would be dynamically assigned to dsps by SFP. One problem with doing that would be that if you've got the perfect sound from your mic positioning, I couldn't 'guarantee' that it would sound the same every time you load the VP-8 or mixer. I could certainly *guarantee* that the non-dsp locked VP-8 or mixer wouldn't be sample aligned every time it gets dyamically assigned.

Consider that someone wants to process multiple 100hz sine waves. I know for a fact that most of us here could audibly hear a 1 or 2 sample difference in channel alignment manifested in audible phase problems

The vp8 is 8 in 8 out indivdual isn't it? So why the concern that each channel must be perfectly aligned together. A 2-3cm difference would be about 0.1-0.2 ms which is nothing.

I'd rather a device like the VP-8 or a mixer was reliable in the sense that it performs EXACTLY the same (to the very sample) each time it loads. I'm not sure If I'd put my name to it otherwise.

Btw, I made some design adjustments last night & the mixer I'm building will now only require that you have 2 x 4 dsp cards min' instead of what I told Voidar above.

bassdude · Post by **bassdude** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:04 am

Sounds like you have decided on a design philosophy that you want to stick to. Thanks for the indepth reply.

With regards to the mic example i.e. a typical application for me, the sample delays introduced are so small that it simply would not affect the sound! And I'm adding additional eq and compression further down the chain anyway which introduces more delays.

However I agree if you are dealing with summing of pure tones like multiple sine waves then small variances in sample delays would be more perceivable as phase problems. I mainly work with live instruments and what synth stuff I have done I just haven't had a problem with phase and time alignment etc etc. If you decide to release two versions, one locked the other unlocked then I would happily use both!

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:09 am

Sure, I guess it is a design philosophy, but I won't stick to it exclusively because I literally won't be able to with some devices like a polyphonic synth or modular module. That's why the stereo filter modular module I built doesn't work polyphonically as yet.

You're right that for the sort of work you're doing it's highly questionable as to whether you'll notice much of a difference if at all, especially if you're adding FX before recording either inline or via auxilliary sends & returns on a mixer which obviously adds delays anyway.

On the other hand.... what if someone wants to take a raw VDAT 8-track that they've recorded dry & direct from their A/D converter & send it through the VP-8 to another 8-track VDAT instance. I don't think they're gonna want sample delays getting added without their express permission :)

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:39 pm

Brotha' Man Shroomz,
I like the other filter emu better. The ability to tweak it per preset on the Bowen synths insert rack, is important to me. Ankyuvarymush.

Not to be a little stickler, but can I change the name of the empty effect ?

This makes my Gigastudio samples like the ARP String, Mellotron, Rhodes, D6, Wurlitzer EP, sound extremely vintage. Not to mention the sound buzz it gives to the Pro Wave / Solaris synths.

Thanks 4 Your Loyal Service,