seriously fed up

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:05 pm

John Cooper
Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
...
Astro and huub, you're holding onto some grudge from previous arguments, but you've already made your points a dozen times... Please if you can't be civil in public, then send pmsg's instead. ...

I didn't exactly know where to put this, but then - imho there's enough general 'content' further down to make it fit here.
Well, first I followed John's advice and thought about it twice, but after a couple of days I still find it highly unacceptable, in fact it's for the first time I feel really offended on this board
No problem with Shroomz'es jokes or someone who calls me the name of the Fuhrer or funny pics of funky pimps supposed to impress...

But anyone, even John, seriously considering me to '...have grudge from previous arguments...' against a stupid (regarding their public appearance) french duo with piteous sales figures(*) has never understood a line I've written.

(*)150 pugins sold means a coverage of 5% of the planetZ user base, for stuff that everyone is supposed to have in his rig - reverb, compressor and eq are by far some exotic amusement.
That's the problem - and not restricted to DAS - I've written that a dozen times or more

Except a few sarcastic replies I've tolerated any offence, in particular by Eric - who questioned my listening abilities, income, profession, technical skills etc - no problem, I can easily look over this.

But to read the afforementioned statement by John hurts indeed...

Easy to sort out in a couple of pms in a civilized way, but then - there's more to this than just personal pride.

It does indeed p*ss me off that ANY religious or otherwise associated group gets their (daily?) dose of Monty Python style humor, but this french duo is the big exception - are they more equal or what ?
If Eliam(!) gets kind of angry (which I never even thought was possible...), you can imagine the dose of arrogance that's involved here.

It's not acceptable at all that Eric (just because his 'fuse' melts a bit too fast) gets a special treatment, while he himself deliberately offends anyone who isn't praising him at first glance. And refuses to learn out of these experiences - which is a big contradiction in itself for a 'developer' btw

Eventually he himself wrote (and demanded) '...to give the king what the king's is'
now doesn't that translate exactly to '...give to somebody what he deserves ?

I am also against ridiculuous and pointless debates, but according to the 'current rules' it I cannot write one single line related to a certain product or 2 specific people that will not cause a storm in a teacup.
There's nothing at all I have to justify regarding my (very few btw) comments about DAS stuff.

I don't care if they don't like it - if it's my honest opinion I won't hold it back.
In this context this forum is indeed different from a magazine review - and that's probably what people appreciate about it.

sidenote for those not yet arrived in 21 century: a magazine review (a true one, not the snippet Olive posted), is a part of marketing activity, paid in one or the other form. There are companies with 'good relations' that specialize on such activities because it's more effective due to it's higher credibility. One of those companies does (or did) the CWA internet site ... Period. No point (or need) to discuss it.
Go to your newsstand and browse a copy of (f.e.) Guitar and Bass. Regardless if it's about a $20 piece of crap or a $2k instrument, it's all great. All. Not one single miss. I've had some of that great stuff in my hands myself. They were brown afterwards....

I admit that I made an ironic remark at Olive's 'press' post - but nothing else.
Now I have to shut up because he has no style. Great.
Does ...tout citoyen cultivé du monde est aussi un Français. fit on DAS'es public appearance ?

May I quickly plead guilty for all my other deeds aginst them ? (while we're at it and there may be no other opportunity)

I've found one (!) of their GUIs a bit too close to another product (visually), and suspected they might jump the SLL marketing train to take advantage of SSL's vast public adressing last year, (reviews... btw).
I just mentioned it - I didn't even critize the approach.

I found a bug in their demo protection module (as it turned out later) and wrote '...it sounds so terrible, that there must be something wrong...'
'No, it's our plug and it's great and first you have to learn about 0db bla bla' was the response.
When I found out (by pure chance) that someone else had made a similiar experience - and got a similiar rude response

, just 2 weeks earlier(!), (so DAS already knew about the problem), only then I made a sarcastic comment.

And that's all there ever was (from my side) with DAS
would this be reason enough for an ongoing grudge ??? LOL
If they want me as their favourite 'enemy' to 'fight wars' ... ok, I'll do them the favour - but take that serious ? you must be kidding.

Yet I will not tolerate if someone suggests this has any importance beyond style of communication and 'free speech' for me.
It's not my business of course, but I always liked discussions here - I may miss them, but I will for sure not make a fool out of myself.
If DAS posts here for whatever reason and each comment has to be (re)viewed under 'watch your steps' first, then I'm off - definetely.

cheers, Tom

petal · Post by **petal** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:00 pm

resistance is futile....

Post by **hubird** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:31 pm

Astro and huub, you're holding onto some grudge from previous arguments,

I really think that of both names only mine or mine person is 'holding onto some grudge from previous arguments'.
Tom's opinion on DAS's role and behaviour on planetz is well known, but that doesn't mean he is to blame for...yeah, for what actually?
In contrast to me he even extremely hold back himself, specially if you consider the uncivilized and also irrational way DAS is cheeting and accusing him.

We at Planetz are used to discuss and argue, and we don't do that so badly, if you look around on the internet.
The problem with DAS is, you just can't argue with them, they obviously are not used to take part in discussions in public.
I have never seen them even one time argueing on base of arguements, on intellectual rational arguements, on content.
And that's the whole problem.

Tom was so wise or polite to step back...I couldn't, as I feel every irrational and repetedly expressed insultation to one (and more) of our members as if it is directed to myself ( I have sociological determined glasses, focussed on group behaviour and functioning, I admit that. In my view the community is more important or more morally determinating than the glorious presence of this or that 3rd party software develloper).

But I feel exactly the same frustration future-wise as Tom does:
I have to watch my words from now on, I have to be wiser or more polite than the two [*] who don't have the slightest capability to function as normal, rational, adult members on this platform, and who -by the way - never draw back any of the wrong accusations or insultations against anyone here (not including me or Tom).
Exactly that incapability to show some community bahaviour made me going on, they never seemed to learn from experiences here.

I will respect John's wish to hold back, as I'm his guest.

Nevertheless, I still think it's all about independency here, but you may disagree about that, and you might think I'm just someone who wants to pick on someone.
Really no problem if one chooses for the latest option

Just let me say that Shroomz and I have a perfectly friendly relationship after our clash, with regular pm-ing, so I'm not chasing persons, at most I'm chasing behaviour.
Which is 'something completely different'...

But this post wasn't about me, it was about Tom, and I would like to say here that he didn't do anything that even looks like the method I followed.
Regarding myself, as said, I will respect the wish of our host, that remains.
(Man, If only they were capable to act normally...).
cheers

Wrong forum yet, Tom

We need a 'General Planetz Discussion'

Hope you stay on line tho

Post by **garyb** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:30 pm

all right now.
forward, please.

Post by **irrelevance** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:06 am

Hmm. I may have been the one you speak of posting the "funky pimps" picture. I thought I was quite apt at the time using a moody picture of the group DAS EFX as I thought I conveyed quite well the vibes that were coming from DAS over comments about the EFFECTS. Wasn't directed at you Tom and I wasn't trying to offend DAS either by the way.

ChampionSound · Post by **ChampionSound** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:14 am

I think everybody made their point a dozen times. So all this isn't new for us (at least for me). I hope everybody can move on from this point.

So please make it stop guys!

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:24 am

i've stayed out of these threads of late and it's my plan to not enter another one after this (but you never know...

) but just wanted to say that as one of the many people who have been on the wrong end of Eric's wrath (is there a right end?) all i can say is if you don't like their attitude vote with your feet (or your wallet) and don't buy DAS's products and avoid posting in there threads (they're not stickies so they'll drift down in time). People who can't even come half-way to apologise and act professionally in a business don't deserve my business and they don't want it apparently so they tell me.

That's it, line drawn. Nothing to see here, move along.

Regards,
Mythoman.

firubbi · Post by **firubbi** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:45 am

What I felt is we need planetz alive and rockn

and we also need ppl like Tom, hubird, garby, atom all those experience ppl who contribute a lot to new user. So this kind of reviewing is always welcome. DAS should not act like this. He’s our developer(and respectable) . If you have any problem in your plug… fix it…take it as friendly. no one is perfect.
I guess all of us should reply and solve this prob.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:03 am

@irrelevance
I didn't have any problem with the pic, though I missed half of the fun by not knowing the name of the group...

There's no problem with Eric's or Olive's comments either - they may call me as they like.

My problem is that people like John seem to be convinced that DAS is a personal affair for me .
I didn't list those 4 topics that may have been considered 'offensive' by DAS for nothing. You will not find a single discrediting comment regarding their plugins by me.

While I don't care about Eric's personal opinion, I don't find it funny at all that it spreads a way that every 'storm in a teacup' is my own responsibility, because I'm supposed to have grudges against them, I didn't give them a break or whatever.
Eric and Olive loose any style and manners of discussion, but I'm responsible for it ? LOL
it already stinks like the Normannic cheese in my fridge, that I had to mention their names here at all.

@ChampionSound
this is only remotely related to DAS, let alone any 'points made'
There are no such points btw (as Mr. A wrote above)

thanks, I don't need self-censorship, Tom

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:05 am

Smoke an extra Cuban Tom. This whole thing isn't worth bothering about.

Bottom line... My guess is that most of the people on the forum (including the host) don't actually think you have a vendetta or grudge thing going with DAS. Maybe it was a mistake on John's part to put your name up there in black & white.

Btw, why include my name in some sort of comparative way here? What's wrong with my jokes? What jokes anyway?

Well, first I followed John's advice and thought about it twice, but after a couple of days I still find it highly unacceptable, in fact it's for the first time I feel really offended on this board. No problem with Shroomz'es jokes or someone who calls me the name of the Fuhrer or funny pics of funky pimps supposed to impress...

I guess you're saying..... "huh, who me? But look what he did ociffer.!! (points long finger of doom) ", or am I misunderstanding?

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:54 am

Shroomz wrote:...Btw, why include my name in some sort of comparative way here? ...

simply for your skills to extend the vocabulary in a certain direction - I like learning language, there's nothing wrong with jokes or biting comments

but you got a point there (further up) - the more it's mentioned the more (unwanted) importance it may gain.

cheers, Tom

eliam · Post by **eliam** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:02 pm

I hear you Astro, I really appresiate your presence on the board, I trust we'll find a way to be happy 'round here, with even stronger friendship than before! I have no clue on how we can achieve this though, we're sort of stuck at the same point. Any ideas? I don't think we should swallow the poison of arrogance, of that I'm sure!

For the record, I wasn't nor am I in any way angry at anyone. I want us all to get along peacefully, if possible. Some apologies are sort of urgent to restore balance, so I merely stated some facts and put some determination back of it, which may be perceived as raw, and it is in some regards. I'm not one to dress my thoughts in a pretty suit, I prefer to go right to the point, and I'm totally sincere when I say I wish success to DAS, even though I disagree with their attitude.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:53 am

thanks Eliam, I absolutely agree with your bottomline.
If someone asks me about a good reverb on Scope I will always include their RMX 160 on the list - but for obvious reasons I will not run around and tell people '...hey did you try that great reverb yet ?...', as I've done for many other 3rd party plugins

I never intended to post anything in the Polteq proof thread, but then I spotted the conditions in the 2 test setups were different and the bell rang that -111 dB wasn't considered equal by DAS themselves some time ago.
A question spot on to the numeric difference was turned into an offence while it would have been quite easy to keep it to the facts.

The question itself was almost inevitable, as someone was contradicting his own opinion, deliberately turning numeric figures and sell the mixture as a scientific proof.
The sad thing is that it wouldn't have been necessary at all.
Noone (at least not that I know) is wishing DAS bad success
noone will bother what's in a plug if it sounds good and is easy to operate
would anyone even consider to operate 2 or more PEQ4 per channel in parallel to 'fake' a Polteq ?

I dunno, but according to my own experiences you must be constantly willing to learn as a developer, so there's still hope for Eric and Olive.
I honestly wish it to them because a self-satisfied attitude will be deadly in this type of business, it's already hard enough in this strange niche of the market...

cheers, Tom

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:18 am

The way I see it (for what it's worth) is that we all know that saying certain things about certain plugs made by certain devs is going to be rubbing salt into old wounds. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be able to speak freely & voice opinions, but there has to be a modicum of common sense involved in handling any situations with these guys, otherwise we'll inevitably keep returning to this situation like some sort of Ground Hog Day nightmare.

I've noticed that you in particular Tom, have actually gone out of your way to choose your words well & to address DAS in a respectfull manner, so I fully understand your gripe here. A key factor to a solution is if the other party could actually understand that your comments (at least mostly) have been completely respectfull & without intentional malice.

I said to sharc that I wasn't going to get involved in these threads, but sod it. Why shouldn't we speak our minds here (at least politely & within reasonable boundaries) ?

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:26 pm

thanks for your concerns, Shroomz, but it looks like the hope mentioned in the bottomline of the post above was in vain.
I'm a poor jealous consultant who just can't stand someone else's success.
50 plugins, maybe 100 in 2 month ? à 99, divided by 2 for the shop's share, divided by 2 for each of the infamous couple, let me see... 2475 Euro, congrats

it happens to be almost the same amount as was printed on my last paycheck, if you add a '1' to it - no, not arithmetically ...write it in front of the leftmost position

cheers, Tom

H-Rave · Post by **H-Rave** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:38 am

I thought we all here to promote a platform,and any company who can help promote Creamware in,my books should be helped as much as possible.If you go out and buy a product you expect support ,I certainly wouldn't expect anything from a demo.Criticism is supposed to be productive.All we have managed to do is piss off DAS,which may have been the intention .I don't find that acceptable.
It's not because you spout off ten paragraphs that your right.The lack of politeness is unjustifiable.

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:07 am

I am slightly curious here. Do any of you guys have DAS plugs, or tried them in your projects yet ?

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 3:40 pm

Jimmy, I wrote about my own personal experiences with DAS and I NEVER even critized one of their devices. You may have had more opportunities to exchange opinions with them due to your business relation, but I dunno where this rumor is from that I might be dissing their plugins.
The case is an entirely self created self-fullfilling prediction by Eric's paranoia.
Everyone with even a mild concern is immediately supposed to 'attack' him and his company.

this thread: http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 29&start=0
contains the core statement of an earlier 'dispute' about their RMX demo.
I liked the very first release, then they made a different GUI and the thing rang like a distorted steel drum, I posted there must be a serious bug within, which they refused was possible at all, according to DAS it was all my bad intention to damage their reputation etc.

then I found (by chance) the complaint of another user, who was also attacked immediately for his observation, which Eric later confirmed as a problem with their protection module, only then and after I've been dissed heavily by DAS I posted the thread above, because Eric knew those problems, but only wanted to see my bad intentions.
Shall I excuse myself for their prejudice ? LOL

I did feel p*ssed of at that treatment (as mentioned I would have bought the RMX after it was clear that it was a demo bug) , and even more by some other posters on those ridiculuous threads.
I'm not in need of that type of 'community' and THAT was the reason I deleted all my posts in all DAS related threads, not to trick Eric. I was about to quit this planetZ and if this BS continues I definetely will.

I dared to write that the graphic layout (of some of their plugs) was choosen to take advantage of a lot of SSL press hype at a certain time - that's marketing, and what's bad about it ?

I pointed out a visual similiarity to the BX digital, which was noticed by at least 5 other members, so what ? Is that an offence ?

People complained about the RMX GUI, it was me who defended the layout
Someone considered the Polteq a cheat if there's 'only' a couple of PEQ under the hood.
I wrote that the gain of quicker operation is well worth the price, even if there wasn't anything extraordinary included.

If you call me biased then ok, we can leave it here...

Even since I've started this thread Eric has disregarded anything I wrote.
Not my problem anymore.

Jimmy, we've exchanged a couple of emails - you know what I'm doing
Do you consider me a waffler or the 5 figure paycheck a fake to bring me one down ? If half of the people here had donated my amount to the forum, John Cooper would be a rich man. Did I ever make any noise about this ?

Eric started to accuse me to be jealous on their 'success', he wrote I have no life (except my virtual existence) and I cannot even afford a single plugin.
Ask John Bowen which of his synths I don't have.
Last xmas I didn't sell a duplicate license but transferred it to a member who couldn't afford it.

Do you, and in particular you H-Rave really think that I'm in need to diss a tiny small enterprise in a niche market ?
I have made some biting clear statements about their position imho to make it clear once and for all times that they have nothing but my pity.

(*) Seriously - you can call me names and an arrogant a**hole, it doesn't bother me at all - but it drives me nuts to read that this french couple might have any importance for me.
That they've lost my respect completely is first of all due to their ridiculuous threating by legal actions against Martin, even if it was only an idea.

They never made any attempts to excuse themselves - they refused the virtual beer that I offered in Legros 'hug thread', so please don't tell me about politeness (H-Rave)

cheers, Tom

(btw - I'm damn sure that Eric read a sentence like the one(*) above wrong and thought it was about him - in fact I allow people fairly often to call me what they like, if they don't do this or that)

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:12 pm

I am sorry you guys are grappling so much. You have always been a gentlemen, and so helpful to me and many others.
I just wish for peace and harmony to return to the 2 of you.

I could never stand by while brothers were fighting as a child. I always wanted to see everyone get along, but we know how difficult that can be at times.

Perhaps the two of you could play a best out of 3 match of chess online ?

I Wish The Best To Both Of You,

eliam · Post by **eliam** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:41 pm

Those clowns are a bit dificult to ignore but I see no other option than just let things settle down because with perspective comes a certain clarity. Imho they clearly deserve a strong warning to keep a grip on their destructive tendencies, but I'm not sure if Jonh is ready to take this stance. If it was my forum I'd request an official apology, but I can only do this as a user, and they just don't comply, they don't seem to care at all. Its incredible that such dedicated (and probably talented) people be so utterly clueless and dumb when it comes to simple constructive communication. To be honest I'm a bit fed-up too with this recursive loss of time and energy, and while I don't like to point fingers, DAS started it, and they keep refusing to clean up their own mess. Childish and pitiful. Ok, some of us may have fueled the conflict, and I do apologize for any part I have played, known or unknown, in this conflict.