Up and coming studio rat would like to purchase a couple of nice synth's for his project studio. What do you recommend?
Been looking at Yamaha, Korg & Kurzweil. Does it get any better than that? Any specific models to look for? Features I should consider?
Mainly want them for recording purposes. Something a client would be impressed with. Great useable recording sounds. That kinda stuff. More interested in realism as opposed to whacky. Bulletproof as opposed to finicky. Long-term upgradable as opposed to short half-life.
Do you think it makes sense to have a combination of weighted and non-weighted keys? Will a jazz purist give an electric piano/synth the time of day or run screaming?
Any suggestions appreciated.
Synth's and keyboards - waddaya recommend?
Nothing beats a real piano! But if you want the closest thing, then there are nice synth with weighted keys which offer a nice feeling for the player... It's different than a piano and one might have to get used to it before feeling comfortable. Now, if you want it to SOUND as real as possible, then I think you need a sampler with really nice whole samples recorded at least at 3 different velocities. You also must adjust your sampler so it can modulate your high freq filtering and your attacks in function of your velocity values. Now this last thing is VERY important to get closer to the illusion of truth that we endeavour to reach, and it is not complicated to do. I do it on my STS3000 without problem.
Then your keyboard serves as a controller only, and you can work on the track after it's been recorded... good thing!
I don't know much about sampled piano banks, but if I had a thousand box, I'd rent a 30grand steinway, a pair of top-mics and preamps for a week-end and I'd sample each note at 4 velocities, each harmonics and sustain pedal at 2 velocities... To build the ultimate virtual piano... With the proper sampler settings, one could hardly say it's a sampled instrument...
For an organ, it's more pleasant to have non-wheighted keys, for organs don't care about velocities...
Now, with this said, for a purist pianist, I'd suggest to have a real piano in the studio, or maybe rent one for the session..
Do you use the modular synth? Do you know reaktor? To my hears, those tools are dynamite!! Hardware stuff may sound great too, but only with the modular, you can travel the galaxy...
Hope it helped!
Then your keyboard serves as a controller only, and you can work on the track after it's been recorded... good thing!
I don't know much about sampled piano banks, but if I had a thousand box, I'd rent a 30grand steinway, a pair of top-mics and preamps for a week-end and I'd sample each note at 4 velocities, each harmonics and sustain pedal at 2 velocities... To build the ultimate virtual piano... With the proper sampler settings, one could hardly say it's a sampled instrument...
For an organ, it's more pleasant to have non-wheighted keys, for organs don't care about velocities...
Now, with this said, for a purist pianist, I'd suggest to have a real piano in the studio, or maybe rent one for the session..
Do you use the modular synth? Do you know reaktor? To my hears, those tools are dynamite!! Hardware stuff may sound great too, but only with the modular, you can travel the galaxy...
Hope it helped!
I replied on the CW forum before I saw this thread, so briefly: I'd go for vintage gear like MS20 and Jupiter4/6/8 and real gear - like the advice above - a real piano.
The latest, greatest hardware synths and workstations cost a fortune and will soon be "last-year's fashion" and no longer impressive.
Real gear and vintage gear will always be good.
The latest, greatest hardware synths and workstations cost a fortune and will soon be "last-year's fashion" and no longer impressive.
Real gear and vintage gear will always be good.
Hey thanks for responding 
I should mention my studio won't support a baby grand so need something that doesn't take up much room. I have already made one jump: I bought a Kurzweil SP88 last night on Ebay. I was looking at a beat-up unit at a local music store and liked the way it sounded. But I would like one more - a standard type synth that can work both as a stand-alone unit and a MIDI controller for Pulsar.
I should mention that I was looking at a Yamaha EX5 which I thought sounded fantastic but before I drop $1,800 I thought I would check with the experts. I'm thinking either the Yamaha or a Korg Trident. Any more comments?
And to Spirit: I saw your other reply. Thanks. Your suggestion makes sense but, somehow I think I'd feel safer with something a little more modern. The Yamaha, for example, was able to pull off some very realistic horns, strings and piano sounds. I think that might be more useful than some of the whackier stuff which I can get using Pulsar (or other virtual devices).
I should mention my studio won't support a baby grand so need something that doesn't take up much room. I have already made one jump: I bought a Kurzweil SP88 last night on Ebay. I was looking at a beat-up unit at a local music store and liked the way it sounded. But I would like one more - a standard type synth that can work both as a stand-alone unit and a MIDI controller for Pulsar.
I should mention that I was looking at a Yamaha EX5 which I thought sounded fantastic but before I drop $1,800 I thought I would check with the experts. I'm thinking either the Yamaha or a Korg Trident. Any more comments?
And to Spirit: I saw your other reply. Thanks. Your suggestion makes sense but, somehow I think I'd feel safer with something a little more modern. The Yamaha, for example, was able to pull off some very realistic horns, strings and piano sounds. I think that might be more useful than some of the whackier stuff which I can get using Pulsar (or other virtual devices).
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kensuguro
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It really depends on the type of music you want to do... but I wouldn't recommend the EX5. It's not a bad synth... but most of the people around me that have it, are thinking of selling it.
It's a very wierd synth I think.. the dynamic range is crazy, and the sounds don't work in a mix. It's got too much of a signature sound, in other words. But it seems to work ok for some (very few) people. Also, you have to be careful because the EX5 has a tendency to lag when the polyphony is high. Why not check out the Motif? Or the Roland Phantom? (if modern is what you want)
Also, you may want to try out a keyboard controller+Roland JV series setup. Pretty much a standard in studios here in Japan. But make sure you get a bunch of its expansion boards because that's where all the usable sounds are.
Speaking of standard setup, you'd also want to leave some money to get some sort of Akai sampler, if you don't already have one in your setup. I don't have one, and don't really need one, but there are many people who live on these things.
Oh yeah, and if you're not very familiar with the "all in one" workstation synth field, I should remind you that these type of synths are steadily dieing out. Most of the synths after the Triton & EX5 era aren't selling well. (in my opinion) Why? Partially because of VSTi and other native solutions, partially because the companies are trying to put in features that are there to make the feature list look nice. Essentially, I think people are getting tired of sample playback synths, hence the trend toward physical modeling and VA.
So that's as far as I know. Aside from these standard equipment, it'll be great if you could find a very strange piece of equipment/junk that no one has. Something that's there because you like it. It just makes the studio a more interesting place to be in.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2002-02-02 08:43 ]</font>
It's a very wierd synth I think.. the dynamic range is crazy, and the sounds don't work in a mix. It's got too much of a signature sound, in other words. But it seems to work ok for some (very few) people. Also, you have to be careful because the EX5 has a tendency to lag when the polyphony is high. Why not check out the Motif? Or the Roland Phantom? (if modern is what you want)
Also, you may want to try out a keyboard controller+Roland JV series setup. Pretty much a standard in studios here in Japan. But make sure you get a bunch of its expansion boards because that's where all the usable sounds are.
Speaking of standard setup, you'd also want to leave some money to get some sort of Akai sampler, if you don't already have one in your setup. I don't have one, and don't really need one, but there are many people who live on these things.
Oh yeah, and if you're not very familiar with the "all in one" workstation synth field, I should remind you that these type of synths are steadily dieing out. Most of the synths after the Triton & EX5 era aren't selling well. (in my opinion) Why? Partially because of VSTi and other native solutions, partially because the companies are trying to put in features that are there to make the feature list look nice. Essentially, I think people are getting tired of sample playback synths, hence the trend toward physical modeling and VA.
So that's as far as I know. Aside from these standard equipment, it'll be great if you could find a very strange piece of equipment/junk that no one has. Something that's there because you like it. It just makes the studio a more interesting place to be in.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2002-02-02 08:43 ]</font>
You guys make good sense and thanks for your take on the EX5. Was reading some disturbing news about that unit on a user forum somewhere. I suppose there are good and bad things about all the synths. The EX5 I saw in a local store sounded great to my ears but again, I'm a neophyte.
So now, I'm thinking about a Trident or the Motif. Any thoughts on those two? And you've convinced me that classic and strange is a good thing
If I get caught up in the flea market/Ebay buying frenzy, I can blame you guys for that
Thanks again.
So now, I'm thinking about a Trident or the Motif. Any thoughts on those two? And you've convinced me that classic and strange is a good thing
If I get caught up in the flea market/Ebay buying frenzy, I can blame you guys for that
Thanks again.
Do you want impress your clients with many keyboards or you prefer to build the best-sounding system you can have? (Both options can be appropriate...)
Do you want realistic sounds?
If you do, I think you can't avoid acquiring a sampler. But as I said, sonic libraries won't necessarily sound good right out of the box... The cleansing of sounds and then the programming of the sampler are very important to make it sound realistic.
It depends what you plan to do, how «professional« you want your productions to sound...
Do you want realistic sounds?
If you do, I think you can't avoid acquiring a sampler. But as I said, sonic libraries won't necessarily sound good right out of the box... The cleansing of sounds and then the programming of the sampler are very important to make it sound realistic.
It depends what you plan to do, how «professional« you want your productions to sound...
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kensuguro
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Fortunately, I do lots of work on a "Trident", or actually, the Triton so I can give you a very detailed description on that. Actually, I think I like "Trident" better, I think I'll call it that. Obviously, it's got some very nice sounds, even if you use it out of the box. It's got a fairly large user's community (though I don't really take part in it), so it's got lots of downloadable presets. Effects are nice, but not professional. You'd want to stick with Pulsar or other outboard equipment for that. The touchscreen thingy will get you addicted. You'd never want to go back to a 2 line dot matrix display. As with the JV series, you'd want to get the expansion boards for good sounds. You won't need the DSP board, because you cang get all the VA sounds you'll need from Pulsar.
Another option would be a beefed up Trinity. That's also almost a standard in most R&B, hiphop orientated studios. I used to own one myself. (still do, but it's in a different studio) Trinity and Triton definitely sound different. Trinity has more punchy sound. You'll notice immediately that it's got that pre y2k sound. Which is a good thing I think. Triton sounds rather weak and cold compared to Trinity.
My friend who's trying to sell his EX5 is checking out the Motif. (what a Yamaha freak) We've been checking out the Motif for the past few months... Personally I'd say the Motif is better than EX5, as in it sits better in a mix. Motif is supposed to have good strings.. but then again, they're just samples so.. besides, I heard them with my own ears and thought I could make a better one on the Triton. Which would be a mix of proper arrangement, performance, and mixing. Oh yeah, I'll also add that the Motif presets seem to be tweaked to fit its weighted key model. The pianos sounded very nice.
But one thing would be, to get something, and learn it down to its bones. I think Triton is good, because since I've used 2 Korg synths, I know the Korg sound. But if you don't know how to tweak it to get good sounds, the Tri-whatever series is still far from a perfect synth. Who knows, if I sit down and learn the EX5, or the Motif to its bones, I still might be making similar sounds. Much of the rest is up to the user.
Finally, as a user that's migrated from SY99, Trinity, Triton, Nord Modular, Pulsar, I'd say that each synth has 2 or 3 sounds that you'd want to keep. I guess they're sounds that you memorize, and when a tune starts to ring in you head, chances are, the sound has become your mental preset, and the tune that is ringing in your head uses it. So I still miss the sounds from the SY99, and even if I still own the Trinity, I wished it was more accessible. It's always good to have many synths to choose from. Besides, you don't want to become a slave to the limitations of 1 synth right? So getting a bunch of used synths is also a solution. (not neccesarily 1 flagship synth)
But it's also a matter of work flow. If you've already got a rock solid workflow of your own, then just get whatever that fits it. Adopting takes time, and time lost is money lost, so it'd be smart to keep that to a minimum. I think everyone has their own flow, and that should be respected. It only changes when the person wants it to change.
I'll add that most of the samples in the Triton expansion are taken from some sample library, which can be bought on CD. Ya see what I'm getting at? Right, if you have a sampler, you'd be able to use these sounds no matter what synth you have. A synth is essentially a sample playback device... with locked samples. But a synth's preset is fine tuned. On the other hand, many samples from sample CDs are very realistic samples, but require lots of tweaking. That's what you have to choose between.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2002-02-02 20:42 ]</font>
Another option would be a beefed up Trinity. That's also almost a standard in most R&B, hiphop orientated studios. I used to own one myself. (still do, but it's in a different studio) Trinity and Triton definitely sound different. Trinity has more punchy sound. You'll notice immediately that it's got that pre y2k sound. Which is a good thing I think. Triton sounds rather weak and cold compared to Trinity.
My friend who's trying to sell his EX5 is checking out the Motif. (what a Yamaha freak) We've been checking out the Motif for the past few months... Personally I'd say the Motif is better than EX5, as in it sits better in a mix. Motif is supposed to have good strings.. but then again, they're just samples so.. besides, I heard them with my own ears and thought I could make a better one on the Triton. Which would be a mix of proper arrangement, performance, and mixing. Oh yeah, I'll also add that the Motif presets seem to be tweaked to fit its weighted key model. The pianos sounded very nice.
But one thing would be, to get something, and learn it down to its bones. I think Triton is good, because since I've used 2 Korg synths, I know the Korg sound. But if you don't know how to tweak it to get good sounds, the Tri-whatever series is still far from a perfect synth. Who knows, if I sit down and learn the EX5, or the Motif to its bones, I still might be making similar sounds. Much of the rest is up to the user.
Finally, as a user that's migrated from SY99, Trinity, Triton, Nord Modular, Pulsar, I'd say that each synth has 2 or 3 sounds that you'd want to keep. I guess they're sounds that you memorize, and when a tune starts to ring in you head, chances are, the sound has become your mental preset, and the tune that is ringing in your head uses it. So I still miss the sounds from the SY99, and even if I still own the Trinity, I wished it was more accessible. It's always good to have many synths to choose from. Besides, you don't want to become a slave to the limitations of 1 synth right? So getting a bunch of used synths is also a solution. (not neccesarily 1 flagship synth)
But it's also a matter of work flow. If you've already got a rock solid workflow of your own, then just get whatever that fits it. Adopting takes time, and time lost is money lost, so it'd be smart to keep that to a minimum. I think everyone has their own flow, and that should be respected. It only changes when the person wants it to change.
I'll add that most of the samples in the Triton expansion are taken from some sample library, which can be bought on CD. Ya see what I'm getting at? Right, if you have a sampler, you'd be able to use these sounds no matter what synth you have. A synth is essentially a sample playback device... with locked samples. But a synth's preset is fine tuned. On the other hand, many samples from sample CDs are very realistic samples, but require lots of tweaking. That's what you have to choose between.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2002-02-02 20:42 ]</font>
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kensuguro
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Whichever synth it's gonna be, it's going to be a big investment. Here's something that might help you in making your choice.
A Triton "out of the box" piano sound demo, no effects. (never mind my bad playing)
http://www.iface.ne.jp/~ken/tritondemo.mp3
A Trinity song I made a while back, that does quite a lot with the internal effects. Everything was done on Trinity, and then put thru T-raxx.
http://www.iface.ne.jp/~ken/funkguit.mp3
Hope this helps. I can ask my friend for something he made with the EX5 also.
A Triton "out of the box" piano sound demo, no effects. (never mind my bad playing)
http://www.iface.ne.jp/~ken/tritondemo.mp3
A Trinity song I made a while back, that does quite a lot with the internal effects. Everything was done on Trinity, and then put thru T-raxx.
http://www.iface.ne.jp/~ken/funkguit.mp3
Hope this helps. I can ask my friend for something he made with the EX5 also.
Kensuguro - you rock!
Thanks so much for your informative feedback on the subject.
Well, I've always liked the Korgs and Rolands. But I like Yamaha stuff too so I guess I'll just have to spend some more time listening, touching and feeling and then try to make an educated decision. There was something about the EX5 that tickled my eardrums in the store. But I understand what you say about sitting in the mix. I was paying more attention to the natural sounds (horns, strings, pianos, etc.) because I figured I could always use Pulsar for the wild stuff.
I think, if I stay with one of these top contenders, I'll probably be OK. Thanks for the demos. They sounded really nice.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: krizrox on 2002-02-03 06:51 ]</font>
Thanks so much for your informative feedback on the subject.
Well, I've always liked the Korgs and Rolands. But I like Yamaha stuff too so I guess I'll just have to spend some more time listening, touching and feeling and then try to make an educated decision. There was something about the EX5 that tickled my eardrums in the store. But I understand what you say about sitting in the mix. I was paying more attention to the natural sounds (horns, strings, pianos, etc.) because I figured I could always use Pulsar for the wild stuff.
I think, if I stay with one of these top contenders, I'll probably be OK. Thanks for the demos. They sounded really nice.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: krizrox on 2002-02-03 06:51 ]</font>
Regarding the EX5. I liked mine but it had a couple of strange points. One of its selling points was that it was capable of five different types of synthesis; four of those types of synthesis ate up a lot of processing power so you could only use one track of them at a time in the 16 track sequencer or you would get an out of processor power message (the fifth type of synthesis was plain old ROMpler sample playback which didn't eat up a lot of processing power). And the arpeggiator function was difficult to understand (for me). But if you could get around those things it really sounded great.
If you want a little more information on the Motif go to http://www.motifator.com
If you want a little more information on the Motif go to http://www.motifator.com
It's already been doneOn 2002-02-01 20:25, eliam wrote:
I don't know much about sampled piano banks, but if I had a thousand box, I'd rent a 30grand steinway, a pair of top-mics and preamps for a week-end and I'd sample each note at 4 velocities, each harmonics and sustain pedal at 2 velocities... To build the ultimate virtual piano... With the proper sampler settings, one could hardly say it's a sampled instrument...
http://www.streamworksaudio.com/feb0002 ... index.html
btw, eliam, thanks for the sampling thread.
It's not yet completed. They'll include the physical modelling of string resonance probably in a first update around may. Then it'll be THE real Grand except for the mechanics. Btw they will add the resonance stuff because of customer requests, thumbs up for a responsive company - the guys at wizzoo.
Just in case anyone asks 'what the hell is that resonance about...?' - It's the triggering of strings who's corresponding keys are still pressed (after the played notes decayed) if the same notes are played in a different octave. It constantly changes during play and makes a piano sound completely different.
But of course this applies only to piano solo - in the mix forget about it
Just in case anyone asks 'what the hell is that resonance about...?' - It's the triggering of strings who's corresponding keys are still pressed (after the played notes decayed) if the same notes are played in a different octave. It constantly changes during play and makes a piano sound completely different.
But of course this applies only to piano solo - in the mix forget about it
Well, for whatever it's worth, I ended up getting a Korg Triton Pro and a Kurzweil SP88.
I auditioned both the Triton and the Motif (side by side in my local Guitar Center). There was something a little strange about the piano samples in the Motif. About middle C the piano started sounding a little wierd. Maybe it was just me. Anyway, that's just nit-picky I know. The Triton has a much wider customer base and I thought that would have a much better bearing on my studio needs.
Anyway, now that I have something to tickle, I've been enjoying all the Pulsar synths. Too much fun Must be illegal in some states. Will be diving into the very wide world of sample discs soon as well (can you tell I'm a newbie?).
Any recommendations for really great orchestral sample CD's that I can use with the Pulsar sample players?
I auditioned both the Triton and the Motif (side by side in my local Guitar Center). There was something a little strange about the piano samples in the Motif. About middle C the piano started sounding a little wierd. Maybe it was just me. Anyway, that's just nit-picky I know. The Triton has a much wider customer base and I thought that would have a much better bearing on my studio needs.
Anyway, now that I have something to tickle, I've been enjoying all the Pulsar synths. Too much fun
Must be illegal in some states. Will be diving into the very wide world of sample discs soon as well (can you tell I'm a newbie?). Any recommendations for really great orchestral sample CD's that I can use with the Pulsar sample players?