resolution of midi controller boards

JP76 · Post by **JP76** » Wed May 31, 2006 10:02 pm

Is there any current reference to the resolution problem associated with the use of midi controller boards for use with the modular III system?
( aka 128 values per the 16 controller knobs contrasted with the 500 values on say the NI KORE system :
http://www.native-instruments.com/index ... 099318e7af )

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:44 am

the problem is non existent with any 'reasonable' controller for SFP

which means it has to be endless (dial) and capable to feedback the 'controller' state on any change including patch changes or screen editing (for example PocketDial and IBK 10-Control).
Afaik the developer of a device can set the resolution and steps in wide ranges.

Yet the 127 step midi standard will often be perfectly OK.
I haven't read the reference above, but I'd expect NI to hype things to fire Kore sales.
...would be nice if they'd be as concerned with their audio quality (sorry, couldn't resist)

cheers, Tom

Herr Voigt · Post by **Herr Voigt** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:54 am

astroman wrote:

...would be nice if they'd be as concerned with their audio quality (sorry, couldn't resist)

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:35 pm

The Kore system hardware controller must be either sending nrpns (not sure what res/bit) which the Kore host is designed to recognise & scale to midi controllers for the plugs ... or the plugs themselves are nrpn based eliminating the need for scaling ... or the controller's rotaries are actually sending standard midi CCs which the host then scales to control the plugs at the higher resolution. Not sure, so this is guess work.

Either way, the major downside of that Kore gizmo has got to be the fact that it's probably not gonna be a workhorse studio controller unless your studio comprises of .. well .. .Kore.

husker · Post by **husker** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:06 pm

As far as I can tell, it skips midi altogether. The Kore controller talks 'directly' to the Kore app (via their own protocol) which controls the VST parameters. So no midi involved.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:47 pm

<a href="http://www.native-instruments.com/index ... orm_us">on this page</a> it looks as if the plug-ins are all controlled with standard CCs, as it refers to 20 (top plugs) pre-configured controller assignments (which makes sense) & also it also says that you can assign the controllers for *any* VST or AU plug with a few clicks, so it DefinATEly talks standard CCs, which means the 500 step resolution of the lurvly tactile pots is most certainly being **scaled_down** by the hardware or host to talk in the standard 0-127 CC range.

gimmik or what?

nah, it's quite nice really

husker · Post by **husker** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:33 pm

Controlling VST parameters has got nothing to do with CC, and is 16 bit direct control as part of the VST spec. Often confused, but not the same thing at all. *some* VST's will also allow you to assign CC's to parameters (so you can use external controllers), but this is not part of VST parameter control, which is what kore uses.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:38 pm

16bit res what? Is it like the Nord, talking in MMC? They don't mention that in their specs at all.

husker · Post by **husker** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:56 pm

What i'm saying is that VST Automation has no relationship with midi whatsoever, so any midi limitation of CC being 7 bit do not apply. Kore uses VST automation, not midi.

As a side note, midi CAN do 14 bit parameter control through NRPN (my Alesis A6 supports this). The fact that all Scope parameter control is only via 7 bit CC is actually somewhat of a limitation, which some hardware does not have. How much impact it has will depend on the parameter involved...there are many parameters where you will get audible 'stair stepping'.

And 14/16 bit control of VST parameters is nothing unique to Kore either. Even my BCR2000 can send out 14 bit NRPN to control VST parameters (assuming your host supports it, which Live5 does). Scope does not however...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: husker on 2006-06-01 16:56 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: husker on 2006-06-01 16:58 ]</font>

husker · Post by **husker** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:08 pm

Actually VST parameters are long ints, so they are actually 32 bit. The VST will report the max value, so the range does vary.

http://ygrabit.steinberg.de/~ygrabit/pu ... meter.html

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:55 pm

Does the hardware controller comunicate via MMC like the Nord Modular or not?

JP76 · Post by **JP76** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:59 pm

great to hear some quality responces and research. At least we can confirm that in some instances midi conllers will produce a step type effect and that given the quality of the onboard hardware and software there is atleast fair argument for an upgrade to the associated hardware ( contoller boards )to match.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:00 pm

Please monitor the parameter change output of your Kore box & tell us the readings. That would help enormously.

husker · Post by **husker** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:00 pm

When you say MMC, you mean Midi Machine Control?

The comms between the Kore controller and the Kore software is undisclosed, and ties in with fact that it also acts as a security dongle. You can't use the Kore software without the controller. (which atually means it truly sucks).

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:04 pm

Exactly, just like the nord mod, except the Nord doesn't suck

husker · Post by **husker** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:16 pm

Ummm...the Nord hardware makes sounds....the Kore hardware does NOT, it just talks to the Kore software which is just a VST wrapper/preset manager.

Anyway Kore doesn't use any midi, so no MMC...just a proprietary link.

husker · Post by **husker** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:19 pm

On 2006-06-01 17:59, JP76 wrote:
great to hear some quality responces and research. At least we can confirm that in some instances midi conllers will produce a step type effect and that given the quality of the onboard hardware and software there is atleast fair argument for an upgrade to the associated hardware ( contoller boards )to match.

YES! getting back to your original question, it seems a shame that Scope only supports 7 bit CC for external control. I wonder if the ASB boxes have something better for the panel knobs, or whether it just goes through the same midi CC mechanism.

It would be a huge change to make Scope itself do anything else, so I wouldn't expect it anytime soon

JP76 · Post by **JP76** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:55 pm

however they do have an SDK for scope, surely this would allow for some I/O options. I guess there aren;t many Firewire based controller boards or generic data controller boards so the actual board itself may be difficult unless creamware decided to make their own (like NI KORE ), I am sure it would be a worthy extensio to the existing system.

husker · Post by **husker** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:05 pm

It doesn't really need to be any extra hardware control, they *just* need to add 14 bit NRPN support and the problem is solved. Then you could use any number of controller devices that support NRPN parameters these days.

Kore is 100% proprietary, and will stay that way.

If they were going to add anything new, it should be OSC support

there could be a Scope Ethernet soft device...

JP76 · Post by **JP76** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:38 pm

cool.
I guess users would have to lobby the company and or provide finance for development and production.