Making dimensions on STS.

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Tue May 02, 2006 9:59 am

Seems the avaible format converters, CDxtract, Extreme Sample converter can´t convert properly from a Gig file with dimensions to STS.
Cdxtract only converts pedal down files from gigapiano. Worse even, can´t convert the 1GB program, (only can the Light program), because it has more that 255 keygroups. Cdxtract support told me this ,what is clearly wrong. STS has 255 "mutegroups" with is different that keygroups. I have just build a STS program with more than 600 keygroups, from diffferent 4 instruments, and the 4 instruments sound ok at time inside the same program, with those 690 keygroups. Cd extract will no convert a gig that would be more the 255 keygroups?? Terrible to pay such money for that tool!!.
Perhaps one of the issue of some people that have the problem of cannot load more than 600 mb on STS, maybe be because use CDxtract, what really uses a part of the total samples. In gigapiano, from 7 samples (3 pedal up, 3 pedal down 1 release) that has for each note, only takes the 3 pedal down ones. So many people may think they have converted 1gb, when on the folder there are only 400 mb. I have loaded 900 mb in STS, no more because have total 1gb avaible.
Extreme Sample Converter, uses all samples, but all keygroups (more then 700), are treated the same, so when press a key, sound the pedal down, the pedal up and the release sample at time, it sounds like a chorus.
I would need some help here. I think dimensions can be done, just editing the Gig file, and saving a separately gig file for each dimension, and conveting separately to STS.
I here need knowolegde. How can I make samples sound with note off? that would mean can trigger a sample when note off is coming, or when pedal goes from down to up, then I´ll ear the release sample.
The other issue is to can trigger a sample/keygroup depending on the pedal position, so when pedal down trigger one keygroup, and pedal up the other. If cannot be done this for individual keygroups, would ve valid to can do on a program, and so make a program for each dimension, pedal up, pedal down, release.
Anyone know if can be done inside STS or must use an external midi manager?
That´s importatn, because if canno be done inside STS, totatly conversion from other formats to STS would not be posible, and will be nice to know, if can or cannot be done.

[ This Message was edited by: lagoausente on 2006-05-02 13:00 ]

[ This Message was edited by: lagoausente on 2006-05-02 13:06 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue May 02, 2006 12:09 pm

well, I can't be of much help on the topic itself, but just a few thoughts...
I have the Gigapiano myself,unfortunately with Gigastudio96 as I'd rather prefer the old Gigasampler.
Imho it sounds fine as it is, focused on ballad sound and of course it contains a lot of program specific tuning.

For me it doesn't make any sense at all to convert it for another sampler, I'm not even sure if access to the single samples loaded in Ram is (really) faster than the Giga way.

It's very CPU light, it just likes to have it's own drive for samples and I remember having used it successfully on a Celeron 350.
Regarding diskstreaming Giga simply rules - the other CPU-hog-wannabes don't count imho.

So my advice would be to leave it as it is and use it with the smallest version of Giga that fits your OS/CPU combo.

On the other hand it's perfectly ok to strip a few samples from it and tune them the 'classical' way with envelopes, looping and filter (if you like the 'sound' of the instrument) and make a (say) 64 to 128 MB piano from it.
For my personal taste this would be too much of work, but I'm convinced that it would become a fine instrument.

I still remember a piano from the soundfont days, that someone had tweaked to the limits with the Vienna editor and which really(!) did sound great on a Soundblaster.
After converting to STS there was nothing but sh*t left and I immediately deleted the files.
It may not be a representative example, but I found it very instructive...

I've mentioned it numerous times that an instrument doesn't become more realistic because of ultra long samples and decaying phases - unless you actually PLAY ultralong notes with endless decays...

A good keyboard and a good response to the latter is much more important imho - let alone that still(!) none of the multiple-DVD-monsters can do true sympathetic string resonance, so all are fakes anyway.
The 2 keyboard rules are: an ARP Odyssey emulation has to be duophonic and a piano needs string resonance...

cheers, Tom

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Tue May 02, 2006 12:52 pm

As Astro said, .gig files are designed to be played in Giga software... it's pointless to convert them to a RAM-based sampler like STS. As you found it's also technically impossible - no dimension/keyswitching support. Seeing as the STS is modelled on the Akai sampler paradigm, this is not exactly surprising.

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Wed May 03, 2006 11:15 am

Well, many thoughts are in my mind now after reading the replies, that could explain why Gigastudio has growing so much in users, as well as Halion Konktat etc,
I really don´t know you at all, and don´t know how you play a piano, as well must say that I´m not a premium player, but have enough level to feel that, really, playing a piano with Gigastudio is quite unconfortable. My Terratec EWS88MT has GSIF drivers, and have tried through them. It has a quite high latency. Of course I´m not telling about numbers, really haven´t tested it, but is clearly unconfortable when start improvising, and a brake when playing and improvising at certain speed.
If I take a partiture and play it, no problem, my mind will adjust for that latency.
If I´m improsising wih Gigastudio, my mind is "remembering", when improvising with STS my mind is thinking foward. There is a quite big difference, nothig of my subjective imagination.
Playing with STS makes me like seen the piano in front of me, the low latency I have using headphones, is near similar the latency of playing a real piano, wich strings can me 2 meters from my ears.
Playing through GSIF seems I´m playing on the "past".
About dimensions I have talked about, seems you have nor understanding very much. Realy is not ver difficult. When edit the gig, I just have to delete sample folders, and retaing others, for example retaining the pedal down ones. Just save as new gig, convert to STS with a translator...
If I cannot trigger the release samples inside STS, can be done on a midi filter, just converting note off velocities to note on, and send to an specific chanel, to the release program.
What seems to me is that jazz players, blues players when exist as cremawe users, quicky get tired on fighting with STS, but to me it´s worth the trouble with kilometers of difference.
The people I have know on music forums, who really pass his life playing and playing, instead cuantizing, comes to conslusions that a computer at 2006 is still bad thing to play, because not only of latency, but more of jitter latency, because Windows is not well builded to do it.
They all end using hardware samplers, of hardware heyboards not sofware.
STS is the expeption, works like hardware and is inside the computer.
Such limited interface, bad suppor is a really pitty for what could be.
If they made a STS with Gigastudio or Halion features and nice interface, anyone would prefer the DSP one withoug doubt, but STS features and interface make anyone runaway to any other sampler.
I also think that most of compute musicians use quantizing, what in my opnion seems more like a bricklayer than like an artist.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Wed May 03, 2006 5:20 pm

Oh boy the latency thing again

If you are so concerned about latency with native softsynths/samplers, then just get an RME and connect it up to Scope with ADAT cables. I use an RME 9636 at 1.5ms of latency, playing back drum samples (often disk-streamed ones with FXpansion's BFD plugin) with a small electronic drumkit. I also use the Scope MIDI inputs, and the latency is absolutely negligible... certainly the lowest possible on today's technology. I have tried a lot of different audio/MIDI systems, and the system I'm using, where Scope is doing all audio and MIDI routing, is as tight as any I've used.

Again, giga samples are simply not designed to be converted. I don't use the STS samplers, otherwise I'd help you out more on the release samples. However I simply don't think it's possible. Don't waste your energy on this... I can't think of too many hardware samplers that support things like that. If this is a standard feature in hardware samplers, I apologize - I've never felt the need to use release samples, as I almost always use samplers creatively instead of for 'library' sounds or making multisamples (*yawn*)

Find a solution that is usable and works, and get on with making music. Maybe even record live with a limited RAM-based piano sound and put the MIDI through a disk-streaming piano afterwards.

If you're dissatisfied with anything I've said, you should either get a real piano and mic it up, or invest in a cryogenic freezer and wake up in 20-30 years, maybe even later.

[ This Message was edited by: darkrezin on 2006-05-03 18:27 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu May 04, 2006 11:42 pm

On 2006-05-03 12:15, lagoausente wrote:
...Playing with STS makes me like seen the piano in front of me, the low latency I have using headphones, is near similar the latency of playing a real piano, wich strings can me 2 meters from my ears...

I'm not a piano player at all, just know enough about harmony and chord progressions to get some more than random noise out of the thing.
So I largely depend on the instrument's mechanic and it's tonal character to 'inspire' me.
The result is always different when changing instruments and ideas that come on a certain mechanic will not be there, even if the sound engine is identical.
With different sounds played on the same mechanic it's almost identical - the 'musical' idea will have changed.

That's my personal reason for demand of string resonance as it's found on real pianos - not that I get messed with a brilliant player who can't live out his (or her) sophistication

But I never found a real world piano that didn't have tons of latency - imho it doesn't even measure in milliseconds...

It's naturally included by the motion of the hammer mechanics and that varies much more than typical driver latency.
And it's longer on an acoustic instrument than on a respective keyboard.

It's probably more uninspiring that the typical hammer action keyboard doesn't trigger the note event by 'hammer hit', but by switches on the key's way - the mechanic just fakes the feel of a 'real' keyboard.
At least many 'true' pianists prefer Kawai stage pianos for exactly that reason - the note is triggered by the hammer.

Maybe you just try this in a music shop to compare - I really doubt that 'time' is the true reason for your inconvenience

cheers, tom

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Fri May 05, 2006 8:10 am

I've always hated GigaStudio, but I bought it to be able to run certain libraries. The msg32.exe sound engine has always been very unstable, so I eventually turned it off except when I'll occasionally use it to run a certain library. I'm waiting for GS to run on VST so I can ditch the old version forever.

I agree it's foolish to convert Giga libraries to something else, because most of them are just that -- Gigs.

Shayne

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Fri May 05, 2006 3:49 pm

Well, the keyboard controllers that have reall hammer must be very good I think also, I have them in mind, when have money enough.
I must try to not tell about what is good, or bad. I think just we just compare things, so have conclusions like, I prefer A than B.
I think anyone can play trhough Gsif of course, our brain adapts to it.
On the other hand, the other sofware samplers like Halion, when use a low Asio buffer really haves very low latency, similar to STS, so talking about comparing, I would prefer Halion for playing before Gsif. Have to say here, that recent cpus let use lower Asio buffers then years ago, when for example I had only a AMD 600 mhz.
Between Halion and STS, regardless to the playing feeling I prefer STS, because has no, or very very low latency jitter. Sometimes this jitter may be nor very perceptible but if you have many midi tracks with many Vsti and many audio tracks with effects, really midi timing will be not as precise, midi latency jitter can increase and some notes come later and others at it´s correct time.
On STS I really not depending on cpu, so playing is stable, sound is linear on timing.
Well, very dificult to do the dimensions?, I don´t think so, can´t I use a midi tool on the routing window and convert note off to note on? I think there are tools like this, that conveted note on can be routed to channel 2, and load a sts program where onloy the release notes on chanel two.
So when note off comes, converted to note on, sound the release samples. I´ll tried to do and tell about.
Till now, playing with only the normal samples is good enough of course, and have nothing to say about having a limit on my music for this issue, but just I´m the ones that if can get the better doesn´t conform the less, so even with simple sts piano is good, I´ll try do make the dimensions, and if work even better.
And if someone have any idea I would like to know it.
Cheers!

[ This Message was edited by: lagoausente on 2006-05-05 16:51 ]

[ This Message was edited by: lagoausente on 2006-05-05 16:59 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri May 05, 2006 7:36 pm

On 2006-05-05 16:49, lagoausente wrote:
... can´t I use a midi tool on the routing window and convert note off to note on? I think there are tools like this, that conveted note on can be routed to channel 2, and load a sts program where onloy the release notes on chanel two.
So when note off comes, converted to note on, sound the release samples. ...

... and will continue forever, as the note off is missing

if you convert 'note off' to 'note on note off' and have the release samples play as one-shots, then it might work.
On the other hand I doubt that a static(!) release noise will add to realism, there's release velocity for this purpose.
You cannot simply replace it by 'note on' velocity.

cheers, Tom

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Sat May 06, 2006 1:53 am

... and will continue forever, as the note off is missing
if you convert 'note off' to 'note on note off' and have the release samples play as one-shots, then it might work.

I´m not sure If we are understanding each other. I haven´t tried it yet because my maiboard have died, and I´m waiting for the new one, since now I´m writing from a laptop, but what I was purposing was:
Take the midi to a midi toolbox. Then take all note off and convert to note on, but take it´s output to a different channel while the ogirinal note on, leave unchanged and output for another channel, then use an sts program for each ones, and receiven on diferent channels. I think with a midi tool can do any dimension. Of course, note off velocity would be most realistic, the problem here is my keyboard, that doesn´t give it. Anyway would be one step. I´m curious about how much will can get with the setup. One day, when buy a keyboard controller with note off velocity, I suppose can convert to note on velocity, and as told send to an specific channel to be playing on a separate sts program.
Really may seems to much complicated but I think it´s not at all.
To make different STS programs from a Gig ,is quite easy an quick. For example, open with Gigastudio editor a Gigapiano Gig file, then delete all sample folders unless release folder, save as.. new gig, just use a Extreme Sample converter and I have a STS program for only the release samples.
The same for pedal up, just delete all sample folders unless Vup ones, and save as new gig.
In 10 minutes have 3 sts programs. After making midi filtering setup, all can be stored as a proyect and STS preset file, so really is not as complicated I think, maybe I´m too optimistic..
About the pedal, think a midi toolbox could allow filtering. So for example, Midi in A to the midi toolbox. Then split to chanel 1, 2 and 3. On channel 1 filter all midi when pedal controler is over 63.
On channel 2 filter all midi when pedal controler is under 62.
On channel 3, filter all note on first, then note off convert to note on.
Finally, put on sts, channel 1 sts program with pedal up samples.
Channel 2 with pedal down.
Chanel 3 release samples.
I´ll try if works next week when have the new mainboard, I´ll tell you if I got it.
If works, it would be interesting also, that having the release samples on a different program, could control better the volume, and so even not as realistic as it was with note off velocity, can add something, and can control how much of hammer noise I add just controlling the sts program level.

[ This Message was edited by: lagoausente on 2006-05-06 02:59 ]

[ This Message was edited by: lagoausente on 2006-05-06 03:00 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat May 06, 2006 4:48 am

well, I think I get the idea of what you're after...
But honestly, since you're already deep into creative sampling, I'd rather give up the idea of realism completely and just build the sound(programs) that inspire you most, possibly even including non-piano samples.

It will never sound like a real piano and will not feel like one either (unless you change the keyboard mechanic) - so why bother ?

cheers, tom

djmicron · Post by **djmicron** » Sat May 06, 2006 7:41 am

[small off topic]

i've tried the ivory piano from synthology, i'm impressed.