My lousy gain structure - any tips?

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Counterparts
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Post by Counterparts »

This happens seemingly every time I mix a tune.

I think, "ah, that's a little loud in the mix" and drop the fader a bit. Then I do the same with something else and before I know it, I'm in a situation like when you have a table with one leg slightly shorter than the others, so you use a saw to remove a little of the other legs...and end up with a table about three inches high! :grin:

Nearly all the faders ended up dropped when I was mixing the biking video tune, leaving the final mix about 3-4db below max.

I was wondering how others set-up & change their faders? Do you e.g. have a "benchmark" sound which you decide will remain pegged on 0db gain and adjust others relative to that, or do you adjust the source volume (rather than the mixer) for some sounds?

Any suggestions welcome :smile:

Royston
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ChrisWerner
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Post by ChrisWerner »

Well I think there is nothing wrong when you use the faders like you do.
To re-gain the sum before you mixdown, try to use a finalizer plug in, maybe a multi band compressor on the sum chain, waves L2 or something like this.
I load one of those always because it reduce the clips over 0db and those clips will come sooner or later. Also good to stay clean when you play live with other.

On the single tracks you can try to use compressors to re-gain power.

Anyway, when you´ve finished a song the main work begins with the mastering, that can end in more work than the whole song took to be composed.

So for the beginning, I would recommend you to stay on your fader work but use a finalizer to get up again.

Hope I was a bit helpful.
Counterparts
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Post by Counterparts »

Hope I was a bit helpful.
Certainly. Although, I am "losing" some bits of information by mixing together at lower than possible levels, then boosting the result?

I think I need to know more about how mixing in the digital domain works! :smile:

Royston
symbiote
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Post by symbiote »

If you mix in 24/32bit (which you should be doing =P), a mix 3-4dB below max shouldn't be too much of a problem. But to answer your question, I tend to have a "benchmark" sound that I very rarely touch once it's well adjusted. Usually the kickdrum and/or bassline (more often, both.) I try to stick them so that they peak somewhere between -6 and -7dB and leave them there. I'll only adjust them if I EQ them enough for the levels to change. I bounce a few different mixes during mixing, so that I can compare and try different things, saving each project in the process so that I can go back and check levels/settings.

With time tho, I've noticed I don't really end up in the situation you describe, I tend to home in really quickly to the "right" volume, which usually stands somewhere between "too loud, distracts from everything else" and "too low, can't really hear it." I find the best tests to figure this out is low low volume playback -- if you can hear all the elements clearly even at very low volume, then you are on to something. Listening from another room also works pretty well, depending on how you house/studio/app/spaceship is setup.

One thing I can suggest is to not spend too much time tweaking a mix until you are fairly done composing, as otherwise adding stuff to the mix will force you to continually re-adjust the levels as you add/remove elements and/or tweak/EQ/FX stuff, so all that precious time you spent tweaking will be lost. Of course not saying to ignore all mixing issues until the end, just saying not to waste too much time on it =P. Works pretty well for me.
Counterparts
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Post by Counterparts »

symbiote wrote:
If you mix in 24/32bit (which you should be doing =P), a mix 3-4dB below max shouldn't be too much of a problem. But to answer your question, I tend to have a "benchmark" sound that I very rarely touch once it's well adjusted. Usually the kickdrum and/or bassline (more often, both.) I try to stick them so that they peak somewhere between -6 and -7dB and leave them there. I'll only adjust them if I EQ them enough for the levels to change.
I currently mix in 24bit @ 44.1
With time tho, I've noticed I don't really end up in the situation you describe, I tend to home in really quickly to the "right" volume, which usually stands somewhere between "too loud, distracts from everything else" and "too low, can't really hear it." I find the best tests to figure this out is low low volume playback -- if you can hear all the elements clearly even at very low volume, then you are on to something.
I have a slightly different approach. I start pretty quiet, then slowly up the volume until I hear something that's not right in the mix (usually too loud and tiring to listen to). I adjust that and repeat the process. If the mix sounds OK all the way from quiet to loud I take that to be quite a good sign :smile:
One thing I can suggest is to not spend too much time tweaking a mix until you are fairly done composing, as otherwise adding stuff to the mix will force you to continually re-adjust the levels as you add/remove elements and/or tweak/EQ/FX stuff, so all that precious time you spent tweaking will be lost. Of course not saying to ignore all mixing issues until the end, just saying not to waste too much time on it =P. Works pretty well for me.
The biking video track is the first one I've done where I've mixed like that (no EQ, compression, reverb or anything added at all). I must admit that it's a better way of going about it from "mixing as you go along".

I had in my head the idea of trying to get it to sound half decent completely dry before starting to mix proper.

Royston
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garyb
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Post by garyb »

yes, your "mix as you go" is only a rough guide. when you're done recording you probably should break you mix down and start fresh, so that the final mix is a complete "performance" in itself. i'd pick a key element(like a vocal) and i'd definitely stay a few db below zero as you'll need some headroom for heavier passages...

effects are just that, it helps to have an idea before just tweaking things(although that can be a good thing to do...). reverb, or at least one reverb if multiples are used, is mainly for setting up a 3d stereo field, but i'm sure you know this....i think that dynamics processors(compressors) are pretty much a must. you need to limit the dynamics of each(well, most)individual track(s) so that everything willl sit nicely together in the final mix...hooray vinco.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-09-27 12:35 ]</font>
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ChrisWerner
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Post by ChrisWerner »

Another hint can be to sort/group your tracks.
I.e. the drum sound and bass should stay together. Pads with fx sounds, vocals with vocal fx etc.
Sort them out and route them to a group.

Now you can add a compressor on each group and level your groups to your demand.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ChrisWerner on 2005-09-27 14:41 ]</font>
Immanuel
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Post by Immanuel »

I would not considder 3 to 4 dB below 0 to be a problem at all. Just gain it up afterwards or normalize a whatever. If you use optimaster, I actually think it gives better results, if you feed it with less than 0 - things get less twisted in my opinion.
symbiote
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Post by symbiote »

Yep, a bit of headroom never hurts. If you mixdown in Scope, it's all 32 bit anyway so there's very little waste or quality loss.
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