CW vs. R5 (new to your list)

ross g · Post by **ross g** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:21 pm

Hello all!

i have a small but functional home studio. i have a windows pc w/ a P4 3.0, EmulatorX audio card/softsampler, Tracktion 2, and Reaktor 5. I also have a Yamaha AW4416 daw with a Wave card, iuse this as a front end/mixer for the EmuX via adat lightpipe. I also have a pretty nice analog setup: Doepher A100, Pro One, Roland System 100, midi'd with a Roland Mpu 101. Throw in a Nord Micro Mod, a Korg ER-1, a few old hardware digital things, i'm not hurting for gear and i should be happy...but it never seems to work that way, does it...

I'm still pretty new to the pc world being a mac/protools ex-pat, i'm happy with the EmuX/T2/AW4416 combo with my analogs and the rest, but i'm not too crazy about R5. I wanted a good, hardcore synth environment in addition, wasn't aware of Creamware at the time of purchase. I was all ready to ditch R5 and get a Scope Home system but it was suggested i wouldn't be satisfied with the limitation, i should save for the Project ver, and i concur, gotta go with the better synth package. It was also suggested i keep R5 and work with it more, and i'm on the fence with this one...i can't afford the Project card with out selling R5, but i may end up really getting into it if i spend time and dig deeper and "roll my own", and i might be able to save a bit a sell other things. Mostly i am not very happy with the user interface, i really like the Nord patching and would have gone with a G2 rack if they had sampling functions. I still have the Micro Mod, not intending to sell it (yet).

Anyway, i have a few question about the Scope Project/CW in general...i'm not sure if it's possible to run two asio drivers at the same time, Emu's and Scopes, i know nothing about this...i'm unsure about routing, i was thinking i could route the Aw's and EmuX's adat i/o thru the Scope's and controll it all that way...i'm also unaware of the VST implimentation, can i run the synth directly thru Tracktion 2 as VSTi's, or do i need to run physical i/o thru the asio audio card (i thought perhaps the EmuX might even be redundant with the Scope card, but it works well for me now, i like the sampler app ok, the Patch Mix works fine, there are some good Emulator presets, etc)..i'm also wondering if you can do wavetable synthesis ala the Waldorph, but with user wavetables and single, interpolatable waves, i know there are Waldorph wavetables, this is unclear (it's somewhat important, R5 doesn't really do this yet, this seems to be a basic implimentation in max/msp)..i'm also curious how much sample-mangling one can do, can you set up "voltage controlled" modulations to sampler mods within the CW system as an internal patch...and, how is the patching/programming in general, compaired to Nord and Reaktor 5? (sorry, that's a lot of stuff!)

if you guys could address at least some of my questions/concerns, i'd be obliged...i've been poking around quite a bit and it looks so cool, i like the zero hit on the cpu, the easier patching than R5, and the sound is supposed to be fantastic (i'm really un-impressed with the VSTi's i've heard)...i'll probably have more q's later, anyway...

thanks,
rg

[ This Message was edited by: ross g on 2005-09-24 16:36 ]

petal · Post by **petal** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:04 pm

I just want to make you aware of the used-cards that are available quite often here:

http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewforum ... rum=8&2365

and on ebay.

You should be able to make a good deal, if money is a problem.

I'll let the others tune in on the questions you have - They are so good at it

ross g · Post by **ross g** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:32 pm

On 2005-09-24 18:04, petal wrote:
I just want to make you aware of the used-cards that are available quite often here:

http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewforum ... rum=8&2365

and on ebay.

You should be able to make a good deal, if money is a problem.

I'll let the others tune in on the questions you have - They are so good at it

thanks petal, i was thinking about that very thing myself, i've been looking on ebay....but i'm not sure how the old cards/software compairs to the new stuff...i have a pretty good idea of the new software packages and i'd definatly like to get the new synth stuff...i'm still finding my way around this site, thanks for the heads up...

rg

Rogurt · Post by **Rogurt** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:09 am

even the older cards mostly have bundled a full toolset in terms of synths. Some might be missing but still U get a whole lot and with the Modular2 U can do new synths till the end of days (also with waldorf wavetables).
It has to be said that there´ll always be a need for more dsp power. But with a purchase on e-bay card you wont loose too much money to give it a try.

As far as I know it´s not possible to have more than one asio driver active. One could use scope in XTC mode (with asio driver of your choice) or more preferably use the scope asio driver and have your other cards routed into the creamware environment. You might be looking for a pulsar2 card unless you really dont have the money and go for a pulsar1 (fairly old). Will be the better choice when handling with any audio drivers other then just scope (and has more dsp power)

One can always find things to improve within scope but the handling is what I really like about it...

ross g · Post by **ross g** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:24 am

On 2005-09-25 01:09, Rogurt wrote:
even the older cards mostly have bundled a full toolset in terms of synths. Some might be missing but still U get a whole lot and with the Modular2 U can do new synths till the end of days (also with waldorf wavetables).
It has to be said that there´ll always be a need for more dsp power. But with a purchase on e-bay card you wont loose too much money to give it a try.

As far as I know it´s not possible to have more than one asio driver active. One could use scope in XTC mode (with asio driver of your choice) or more preferably use the scope asio driver and have your other cards routed into the creamware environment. You might be looking for a pulsar2 card unless you really dont have the money and go for a pulsar1 (fairly old). Will be the better choice when handling with any audio drivers other then just scope (and has more dsp power)

One can always find things to improve within scope but the handling is what I really like about it...

i'm trying to weight the difference of price/performance...i'm keeping my eyes open, but i'm not sure the difference between the pulsar cards and the scope cards...is the dsp chip the same or an upgrade in the scope?

as far as asio, just to make clear, i want to use the EmuX softsampler, the Emu card is needed as a sort of dongle to run the app... i'm not sure if i have to use Emu's asio driver or if i can route via vst thru Tracktion 2 and use the CW card as the main sound card (i think i can, i can route it thru my mbo for example) , or if i can run the Emu sound card with it's asio driver, and run the scope card with it's asio driver at the same time...i've had some say it willwork, others say there will be conficts...problem is, there is no way for me to try it before purchase or if i can return it...i thought the ideal way would be to run (via lightpipe) the Emu card and the AW4416 into the Scope (or other CW) card, and manage the routing with the CW mixer app, it seems this would provide the most flex....clearly, this is a complex issue...

so, do you guys use your CW cards as your main music sound cards, do you use other cards with the CW cards, or what?

please, if anyone has key info, answers to my original questions, good suggestions, or a killer BBQ sauce (joke!), please pass it along....i want to figure this situation out crrectly, i may have to shuffle some gear and monies around to make this work, so all info will help...

thanks,
rg

[ This Message was edited by: ross g on 2005-09-25 12:27 ]

suthnear · Post by **suthnear** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:30 am

(1) You definitely cannot run two ASIO drivers at the same time
(2) I don't think it's possible to run any of the current creamware cards in XTC mode only and so I don't think you could use them with some other card providing the ASIO driver (I am not entirely sure of this, though)
(3) creamware's modular is much easier to set up and interact with than reaktor. But you cannot easily compare the two as their strengths and weaknesses fall in different areas. Reaktor (particularly v5) offers much lower level access to modules and, as a result, offers many more options to builders. In addition, there are many audio processing processes that are simply not possible with the creamware modular as things stand currently. On the other hand, a creamware modular patch is quite a bit easier to set up and change: the UI and general approach is along the lines of the nord modular. The creamware modular offers many more possibilities than the nord, though, particularly with flexor, even if the environment is not as stable or as easy to work with as the nordmod's is. Personally, if I had to choose, I'd choose reaktor then the creamware then the nordmod, but that's just me...

suthnear · Post by **suthnear** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:32 am

p.s. I'd not describe your home studio as small...

ross g · Post by **ross g** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:49 am

On 2005-09-26 08:32, suthnear wrote:
p.s. I'd not describe your home studio as small...

well, compaired to some....i actually think it's pretty darn good, but i've seen the pics of some guys on this forum and especially on Analogue Heaven...whoa!!! like a damn electronic museaum...i'm happy, but R5 is turning out to be a bit more frustrating than expected...i've decided to treat it as a long term project as opposed to instant gratification. i'm not going to be able to go with a CW setup right off, i'll have to save a bit...the "1:1" emulations, good sound, an patch cable programming are the selling bits for me...i'd like to work in a modular environment, in the past i've worked with a timing track on tape and i'd overdub stuff using it, quickly building little riff machines and what not, R5 just doesn't lend itself well to that approach, for me anyway...my Nord micro mod is cool, i'd like to take it a step further, and although i'd like to get more mods for my Doepher, i don't have NIN money...(yet...i mean ever)

i'm still confused on the asio driver question...i believe you, it's just that i'm getting conflicting answers...some have said "shouldn't be a problem", others have said "it depends, some do, some don't, it's a case by case situation, you can only test it out", and you're the first to say "it won't work"...even if i can't run the emu and CW card at the same time, i could still use them both....uhhh...just not at the same time...although that isn't the ideal situation....

being new to pc's and asio drivers, is there a bit more info on the matter you could provide? please understand,it's not a challange, i'm just trying to get educated on the subject...

(edit)and just so i'm being clear, i'm thinking two cards each using it's own driver ie Emu card using Emu's driver and CW using CW's driver...i would want to use the CW strictly as a synth to keep the load off the cpu and the Emu as the audio card UNLESS i could use the CW card for routing the whole studio via lightpipe (this senario was suggested by a vendor, he said it would work, but he gave no guarrantees, suprising, huh?)

thanks for your time,
rg

[ This Message was edited by: ross g on 2005-09-26 12:02 ]

valis · Post by **valis** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:13 pm

With 2 asio cards in the system you can run independant apps for each asio driver, but no sequencer takes advantage of 2 asio drivers at once. OSX does have the ability to gang multiple cards into a single interface but Scope doesn't run there.

ross g · Post by **ross g** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:33 pm

On 2005-09-26 15:13, valis wrote:
With 2 asio cards in the system you can run independant apps for each asio driver, but no sequencer takes advantage of 2 asio drivers at once. OSX does have the ability to gang multiple cards into a single interface but Scope doesn't run there.

i mentioned this earlier, kind of buried...let me try and explain my thoughts:

i thought if i ran my EmuX card and Yamaha AW4416 DAW thru the Scope card via adat light pipe, i could use the Scope for synth/routing duties, and use Tracktion 2 as the sequencer...if i ever get to the point of "mastering, i'd want to take advantage of my Waves card in the AW4416 anyway, in other words, as long as i can run the EmuX and Scope cards, with their respective drivers, without conflicts, that's all that's needed...i can mix "in the box", in the AW4416, or even run stereo pairs thru my Mackie mixer...i'm actually looking for maximum flexability, i'm not sold on mixing "in the box" as of yet...is this possible?

thanks,
rg

[ This Message was edited by: ross g on 2005-09-26 20:35 ]

Post by **garyb** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:35 pm

mix in scope.
your best sounding option by far, rivaling the best of hardware...

ross g · Post by **ross g** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:42 pm

On 2005-09-26 20:35, garyb wrote:
mix in scope.
your best sounding option by far, rivaling the best of hardware...

better than Waves L1 limiter and Renn. EQ? i just saw they came out with Ren. Bass and L2 for the Waves 56k card as an upgrade, that's some good stuff... that was the main reason i got the AW4416, the Waves plugin card, i didn't even have a pc when i got it, it's a nice daw, it's not all "gimmicky" like some of them...

i forgot to add: i'm planning on getting the synth package with the Scope Project, it's my main interest, i can't afford the Pro at this time (or even the Project, i'm working on it..ha ha)

rg

[ This Message was edited by: ross g on 2005-09-26 20:45 ]

Post by **garyb** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:48 pm

On 2005-09-26 20:42, ross g wrote:
better than Waves L1 limiter and Renn. EQ? i just saw they came out with Ren. Bass and L2 for the Waves 56k card as an upgrade, that's some good stuff... that was the main reason i got the AW4416, the Waves plugin card, i didn't even have a pc when i got it, it's a nice daw, it's not all "gimmicky" like some of them...

no doubt it's great! as far as integrated control surfaces, the yamaha has scope beat(although it's not that hard to set up a surface). as far as musical and audio options, possibilities AND sound quality, the computer's a better choice. the computer(with a scope card) offers better integration and flexibility, better routing and more varied effects, not to mention a better price tag.

it's a dsp chip running the aw4416 and of course the o2r is a fine mixer. you're right it's a serious device, but it has only 2 processors and limited routing. after all, the aw4416 is not meant to be used for actual production studios. the scope card with an ad/da on it's lightpipe connectors or zlink can be. it has much more processing power, especially when combined with a modern sequencer. with even cheap ad/das connected to lightpipe like the behringer ada8000, you'd have 16 mic pres with 16i/o that would sound as good as the yamaha's pres if not better, and would only add less than $450 to the cost of the system. the yamaha could finance a good part of the transition(sorry, not meaning to be disrespectful!). maybe you don't realize just what is possible...

scope sounds like REAL studio gear. scope won a oscar for gladiator...good enough for fairlight....

there are always preferences and opinions. there are other good sounding options. for mixing scope is pretty darn good. it'll give pt hd a run for the money, and win when price is factored in...in fact, when folks think that scope is expensive or a system using it is, i get confused for a moment. then i realize how little they know about recording.....it's funny, everyone hypes the synths and the synths are DARN good, but the audio is pretty good too. maybe that's why the synths sound good? sufice it to say that i dumped a 24 track 2" tape machine for a computer and scope and i haven't regretted it once. ever. i'm not saying that you'd never miss your waves plugins, but you'd be more than compensated for the loss. i'd bet that after the initial period of mourning, you'd find another beauty for your life. waves is always available in vst if you really need it that bad, but then i'd rather spend my money on sonalkis or kjaerhusaudio or voxego. the waves plugins i tried sounded really very nice, but not as nice as all that....

anyway, just my opinion, and you can see that by the number of posts that i've made i express it often. sorry for those who didn't need to hear it again.

i've just finished another of those year and a half projects and it came out pretty good. of course there was a pretty crazy listening party for the cd the night before last, the artist involved got pretty rubber-legged he was so happy(i'm not a drinker, but it went on till late and then with last night's gig i'm exhausted.

). if you want to hear what mixing in the box sounds like(by a mediocre engineer

) drop me a private message.

p.s.-for a really nice daw, the parts for a top shelf computer have a cost of about $1300. a scope card costs $800. 2x behringer ada800 cost $460. magix musicstudio(for mastering cds)$79 and cubase sx3 costs $500. the total is about $3200. for that money you get easily 32 tracks of audio, tons of midi, loads of studio effects, several nice mixers, a bunch of great synths, a sampler, a modular synth, 20 simultanious, freely routable i/o with 16 mic pres and top quality sound. there's more, including pitch correction in the magix program for instance, but that's the main stuff.

the yamaha costs, what, $2500?(lists for about $3700) except for ease of use(it's a much simpler machine), can it really compare for sheer usefullness in more situations?

[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-09-27 01:06 ]

Nebukadneser · Post by **Nebukadneser** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:04 am

You might consider the Creamware Noah EX as an interesting addon to your studio. You may bypass the asio problem by using E-mu as your main card. The Noah will send audio on ADAT out (and analogue out), which you may route to separate ASIO channels on your E-mu.

The NOAH ships with a selection of excellent synths (minimax, b2003, protone, prodyssey, sixstring, interpole (filterbank) and soon to come, prophet 5 and Vectron.

It has nearly twice the dsp power of the Scope home, and you might get it cheap on http://www.ebay.de (the German Ebay)

Just a thought ...

Neb

Post by **garyb** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:50 am

yes, for synths alone, it's a great deal.

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:38 am

Like garyb said! Except I'd get a A16U instead of AD8000/EMU =P. I dumped my mixer in favor of such a setup also, never (ever) looked back. Saves alot of deskspace too.

The mixing on Scope is definitely top notch, and you can run the Waves stuff natively or get that DSP thingy they released, if you absolutely must have those algos.

ross g · Post by **ross g** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:11 am

first of all, i dig all responses, i'm new to CW and all info is schooling me...

i've thought at some point, i may end up dumping the AW4416... but right now, i'd like to get access to a highly programmable synth with high quality, analog-level sound...it seems CW is the ticket...i've worked on a big Emu modular, an Arp 2500, i've got a Doepher A100, etc, and i love the high level, easy patching, qquick but complex experimentation etc... i've even thought of expanding my analog synth setup, but that's not going to happen for awhile for various, somewhat obvious reason$$$...i take no offense to AW4416 "bashing" (in quotes 'cause i know you aren't bashing per se), but i've got it and i'm not getting rid of it right now, it serves it's purpose well, plus it's very portable if i want to go to a remote location for recording, easier than lugging MY computer (please don't bring up other options, i'm confused enough!) i WIIL check out the powerful mix features in the future, i'm concerned with modular synths and some of the emulations at present...

please, if you good people have some thoughts regarding my current setup/integration with CW/ multiple asio drivers/etc, that's the info i need....i'm getting conflicting answerers and i'm only getting more confused...i've explained my situation and my goals, if you guys could stick with that, it would help me out...i need to first figure out what i'm going to do, then i can focus on how i'm going to do it, THEN i can worry about upgrades, additional software, etc...my finacial situation is rather odd, i may be able to get some money and then sell stuff afterwords if the equipment proves redundant...(actually, i love hearing all the opinions and options you guys are giving-i't sounds cool!)

rg

[ This Message was edited by: ross g on 2005-09-27 08:14 ]

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:26 am

If you can run the Emu's sampler without using ASIO (i.e sending the output straight to ADAT somehow,) you should be able to pretty easily hook up the Emu's ADAT output into a Scope card's ADAT input. If you get a card with 2 ADAT ports, you'd have another 8 to hook up into the AW4416. So I'd suggest you get just the Scope card first and see if you like it.

If you don't plan to use the 2 cards at the same time, there shouldn't be any problems having both at the same time in the same system. Running both of them in ASIO at the same time using the same software won't work for sure, and even if you use 2 different software (one for each,) running 2 ASIO interfaces at low latency will definitely munch appreciably into your CPU usage.

I'd definitely suggest selling R5 and getting the Project card. However much nice R5 is, the CW modular will definitely sound heaps and heaps better, plus you'll have access to all the unique Adern Flexor modules (have to buy them separately, but you might be able to find a second hand card that includes them.)

Modulation-wise, you can send pretty much anything to anything else in the environment, so sending sampler/synth output into a modular patch (which can have up to 8 inputs and outputs) is trivial (other way around is also trivial =].) You can use the modular as a synth, effects, or both.

As for the emulations, you can find some mp3 demos for a few things (QWave, Solaris, Minimax ASB) in the the forums, check the ASB forums for the ASB ones, Devices on for the Solaris, Announcement (or Zarg's site) for the QWave ones. I don't think there's any user-editable Wavetable stuff yet, but it's rumored to be included in a future version of QWave, so there's definitely hope.

Synthesis-wise, there's definitely nothing else that even remotely compares to the Scope platform, BOTH on pure sound quality and quantity/versatility, not to mention extremely competitive pricing.

The only think I don't like about the platform is the samplers. They work, I use them for simple percussive samplesets and the like, but I'm not crazy about them. It's the only part of my setup I feel could be made better. Just for info, I have 2x Scope cards (Pro and Home, 18 DSPs total,) with an A16U, Virus Indigo (main workhorse and knob array) and a few odd rack boxes I never use (Behringer DSP1000 effects thingy, MAM MB33 303 clone.) I'm a big synthesis freak and I'm extremely happy with what I have available to me. I do all the mixing and effects on Scope (really not a fan of the VST sound myself.) I only use a few VST things once in a while, like smartelectronix destroyfx, voxengo, sonalksis, and elemental audio stuff (which I love, the Inspector XL they juse released is AMAZING.)

ross g · Post by **ross g** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:48 am

here's another thought i had off the top of my head...what's the minimal cpu config i could get away with COMFORTABLY? i see used systems for a couple hundred bucks, i could route everything via lightpie as discussed, i just would have 2 cpu's doing the job=zero conflicts, i have a multi-port dsl modem, just plug that baby in and go...waddayall think?

rg

Post by **garyb** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:05 am

if you don't run a sequencer, a 500mhz processor will work just fine. with an ad/da as described connected(or the yamaha) via lightpipe you would have a 16-20 i/o mix/synth/effects box.....