Limiters

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:15 pm

Been using Creamware Limiters lately and does job very well,but was wondering which ones people use and if there are any differences.

Thanks

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:36 pm

There's more than one?

There are some threads on great SCOPE compressors out there. Are you specifically looking for "limiters"?

(And if so, what, in your mind, is the difference between a compressor and a limiter? -- Honestly, there is a widely debated fine line between compressors and limiters... Everyone seems to have a different idea about what constitutes a limiter.)

[ This Message was edited by: blazesboylan on 2005-08-24 18:36 ]

Post by **hubird** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:05 pm

On 2005-08-24 18:36, blazesboylan wrote:
Everyone seems to have a different idea about what constitutes a limiter.)

Is it ?

I was curious about any reactions here, because I'm feeling CreamwareA could benefit from a typical allround pro limiter plugin, as a cool finisher of the Optimaster

i mean, a limiter including precise in/outputs, dithering options, like the Waves L serie.
The limiter of the Optimaster seemed to have no 100% ceiling, I had to fall back on the Waves L1 lately to be sure

It's not clear to me if any dithering is involved with the Optimaster-limiter, tho I never was able to hear any relevant differences with or without anyone's dithering process, in my not-so-dynamic mixes that is

I have to admit that I have to check (again) the standard Scope limiters (same as in Optimaster?!) and the Dither Shaper, but a decent integrated top mastering plugin would make me horny, that's for sure

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2005-08-24 19:12 ]

R.D. Olivaw · Post by **R.D. Olivaw** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:31 pm

On 2005-08-24 18:36, blazesboylan wrote:
(And if so, what, in your mind, is the difference between a compressor and a limiter? -- Honestly, there is a widely debated fine line between compressors and limiters... Everyone seems to have a different idea about what constitutes a limiter.)

The main difference between compressor and limiter is the goal it's used for. A compressor is used to reduce the crest factor and make the level more constant along time (if u get my french english), and a limiter is used to prevent the signal from going over a max level, occasionnaly. Therefore the comp threshold is set much lower than the limiter threshold.

The "official" definition of the limiter is a compressor with fast attack and a minimum ratio of 12:1.

but it's all only theory

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:53 pm

On 2005-08-24 20:31, R.D. Olivaw wrote:
The "official" definition of the limiter is a compressor with fast attack and a minimum ratio of 12:1.

but it's all only theory

Whose "official" definition is that? Yours? Or...? Cite me a source please!

I have an outboard "limiter" that has the following ratios: 4:1, 8:1, 12:1, 20:1.

I have a few outboard "compressors" that range from 2:1 up to infinity:1.

The CreamWare SDK "Limiter" and "Compressor" modules seem to me to be identical. They both range from 1:1 to infinity:1 with exactly the same attack, release, threshold, ratio and gain curves. I tested them extensively to come to this conclusion.

I know this is being pedantic to a certain extent, but on the other hand, what's wrong with using Vinco with "lookahead" in order to get some sweet-sounding brickwall limiting?

The latency of SDK is going to "limit" how much fast attack you can get. You can get infinity:1 ratio using a fairly simple compressor circuit, but it won't do anything to sweeten your sound. You can also use SoftClip to distort your peaks a bit.

I dunno. Personally I use compressors and limiters more for how they shape / EQ the sound. If I'm clipping, I lower my levels -- I figure I don't need the last 10 db of audio in SCOPE anyway, since it's all 32 bit integers it sounds good enough to me.

And Hubird if you have very little dynamics to begin with, why would you want to limit?!?

I dunno... Maybe I'm an oddball...

Post by **hubird** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:15 pm

your words about the differences/scaling quality of both concepts make sense of course

I'm not used to compress to the limit, I've always room for -6 (to -9) dB dynamics.
But i tend to use a compressor to compress, and a limiter to limit, the latter as a 100% brickwall indeed

cheers.

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2005-08-24 21:17 ]

R.D. Olivaw · Post by **R.D. Olivaw** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:10 pm

On 2005-08-24 20:53, blazesboylan wrote:

Whose "official" definition is that? Yours? Or...? Cite me a source please!

That's why i put official between "" ...

Most books say 12:1 (I have french ones in mind, sure citing them won't help much), some other books say 10:1 (Woram's Sound Recording Handbook as far as i remember).

Of course a compressor can have a range higher than 12:1, thanks god u can use a compressor as a limiter... Remember a limiter is a particular use of a compressor...

You have an outboard limiter with a ratio that goes down to 4:1, I'm not surprised with it.
That's why I said it's all only theory: hard/software manufacturers do what they want. Including a 4:1 ratio to a limiter is a good idea, this way u can use it as a compressor.

BTW I dont know neither what's wrong with using Vinco with lookahead. Lookahead is very useful to limiting, and the 1176 was designed in the first place as a limiter.

dbmac · Post by **dbmac** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:21 am

On 2005-08-24 19:05, hubird wrote:
.... a decent integrated top mastering plugin would make me horny, that's for sure

I testify for the Timeworks Mastering Compressor. It should turn you on.

/dave

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:40 am

On 2005-08-25 05:21, dbmac wrote:
On 2005-08-24 19:05, hubird wrote:
.... a decent integrated top mastering plugin would make me horny, that's for sure

I have it but Limiter gives more volume

I testify for the Timeworks Mastering Compressor. It should turn you on.

/dave

Post by **hubird** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:22 am

I dl'd the demo, will check it tonight

looks good

pling · Post by **pling** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:35 am

...The limiter of the Optimaster seemed to have no 100% ceiling...

digital-ceiling is in the output-section on the wizard-page. it's independent of the limiter.

Post by **hubird** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:52 am

thank you pCora, I've lost that halfway somewhere

pling · Post by **pling** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:08 am

no worries hubrid, i love to enlighten the "overlords"

btw, i love the optimaster, it does a very good job for me
though i haven't tested the vinco yet. i guess it has much more "personality"

Post by **hubird** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:16 am

can't find any documentation on the STW Mcompressor, or presets.
I would like to know more about the dithering, and also about the difference between soft and hard version.
Sure, 'knie', but...

dbmac · Post by **dbmac** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:42 am

Here's a clip from the STW doc:

The Mastering Compressor SFP Version is a SHARC-based 32-bit volume optimizer capable of real-time manipulation of live input as well as recorded material.
Controls are pretty straight forward, and we feel confident you will understand the use really quick.

4 versions ship with this installer. "Hard" and "Soft", which again are in mono and stereo, giving 4 options. "Hard" and "Soft" are explained in more detail below.

Hard/Soft

This software actually contains 2 different plug-ins, both having the same functionality. Which one you will choose very much depends on personal preferences and musical style.
We have chosen to call them "Hard" and "Soft", because it somehow resembles the classic distinction in compressors, between hard-knee and soft-knee. But this is only a small part of the truth in this case.

In general Hard is much more transparent. It will try to optimize your volume, and at the same time interfere as little with the frequencies of the signal as possible.

Soft, on the other hand, does on purpose try to enhance the bass part and soften the high-end. In a lot of applications where volume optimization is wanted, this is exactly what is wanted.

Another thing which is important to note is that if you set all controls to zero on Hard and switch bypass on and off, you will not be able to hear any difference. This is not the case with Soft.
This means that you can actually use Soft as a bass enhancer *without* doing volume optimization.

Controls

The Mastering Compressor only have a few controls.

Input decides the gain which is fed to the actual processor. You can "gang" the input faders with the gang button just below them. When it's activated the 2 faders will follow each other, always giving the same input gain for both channels in stereo.

Output Gain is your threshold level. The level will never go above this, and you can think of it as a limiter.

Threshold decides the threshold for the compressor. In general your volume boost equals the difference between Output Gain and Threshold. Good results is often achieved by having a boost of around 4 dB.

Dithering turns dithering on and off. For some notes about dithering, please see below.

Release sets the release time of the compressor.

Dithering
...
The dithering used in Timeworks Mastering Compressor for SFP is the end of years and years of dithering tradition. It is highly recommended that you turn the dithering option on when using this software.

But..... in some cases you will not want to do this:
Some applications is dithering already (i.e. Samplitude and Wavelab). You should only dither once, and should choose which dithering to use.

The dithering on Timeworks Mastering Compressor is dithering to 16-bit. If you end-media is not 16-bit you shouldn't dither. 20-bit and 24-bit medias generally do not require dithering, the bit-depth is high enough already.

/d

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:50 am

btw AFAIK the Vinco doesn't have lookahead right?

To be honest, so far I haven't really used limiters, or compressors set to anything higher than 4:1 or so. I do use the vst Endorphin multiband compressor sometimes though which features a built in limiter at the output stage to ensure that the signal never clips but that's about it.

[ This Message was edited by: King of Snake on 2005-08-25 09:52 ]

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:20 am

On 2005-08-25 09:50, King of Snake wrote:
btw AFAIK the Vinco doesn't have lookahead right?

Smart alec!

If you feed the signal through a delay to the input, and the straight signal into the side chain, you can achieve the same effect. But yeah that would be a geek solution...

Post by **hubird** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:03 am

@ Dbmac, thanks man, it helped already

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:59 pm

My FOH engineer makes me go through a brickwall limiter on his Avalon. It will not allow signal to exceed set db level. It was the only way for me to mix my XPander with the new digital gear i.e. GS3/Scope, without overpowering the layers of sound I mix with it. I use Scope for mixing, modulation FX, Hammond emu, tape delay sim, phaza, and also timbres I can't get on the XPander. Scope adds some powerful color to that fat bastard. But I would love to send Oberheim through Scope if I could get a good brickwall limiter plug. Any tips for this idea dbmac?

[ This Message was edited by: scope4live on 2005-09-05 17:01 ]

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:15 pm

You might find the STW Mastering comp to be good for that.. I find it's less harsh than something like the Waves stuff.