suggestion for new SCOPEf-feature: Sub-sets!

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:34 am

oh, and never mind te fancy name.

What i would like to see is some sort of routing-presets WITHIN a project

This would come in handy for everyone that cant afford shitloads of dsp's.

Imagine:
you are working on a tune in a sequencer. you run out of dsp power, and want to add another synth-line.

shock, horror, you need a CW synth line.

problem is, being a typical CW user you only have 6 dsp's. well, in my dream you alt-tab to your SCOPE enviroment, save routing as "preset1" WITHIN the project, which enables you to have another set WITHOUT disconnecting ASIO in example.

Practical use:

well, all of us with too little DSP power (i guess that covers all of us) would be able to work in modern sequencers, render down a midi track (synth-line in example). change ROUTING-PRESET which would:

a) unload the devices needed
b) load the devices needed
c) do the routing you preset
f) do all this WITHOUT requiring a dis/reconecting nececary audio devs (ASIO driver in example.

main object here is to be able to swap between the sub-sets. this would give scope users a new way of workflow that would make life easier for all of us, and i guess it would add to the supreme arsenal that is SCOPE!

Oh, and it would ease the workflow of all sequencers that halts on driver changes;

oh and i forgot

this would enable "SCOPE freeze" with some additional native progging

now, close your browser, fire up dp and make me happy!!!!!

(practcally: you do a chord line with prodessy, 4 voices chained with supertap and masterverb (hell, im only doing an example here!). you want to add a minimax solo with spaceF echo3. well, youre all out of dsp.

you go to the menu, select "new sub-set", and you get a dialogbox: "select devices to unload".

you select prodessy and the other shit. click "ok" to finish selection. this might just deload the dsps, "freezing" synts and effects in its current form ( as in unloading DSP processes).

Next dialogbox: "please add devices for SUBSET 2."

here, you add minimax and Echo.

after a while you see you need to change the proddesy chords.

well, go to you project, press Alt-1, and hey presto, prodessy, 4 voices and "the other shit" is hooked back up, minimax has 0 voices, echo is "unloaded" and you are ready to go!

this is an example of two synts/setups. Imagine beeing able to "hot-swap" these and keeping ASIO drivers intactt!

edit: very much.

however, i forgot to mention that routing should also be presetable within a project, which means we should be able (thru a hot-key) to swap, in example, the outs from minimax from geing connected to echo3 to being connected to, again this is an example, ganja delay (thou ganja with no delay fits me better)

[ This Message was edited by: piddi on 2004-12-01 04:52 ]

[ This Message was edited by: piddi on 2004-12-01 05:04 ]

doodyrh · Post by **doodyrh** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:46 am

I like it.
It sounds similar to my suggestion for a project presethere.

Sadly though I'm running out of hope for any new developments. I guess they must be working on new hardware and the software to go with it. I still hope that the new software will work with the old hardware.

doodyrh · Post by **doodyrh** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:56 am

To get the same result I also wondered about an alternative.
What we're trying to achieve is basically load a new project without pulling out the drivers, right?

If the ASIO etc. drivers were implemented outside of Scope they would be available all the time for applications. Then when Scope is loaded it just has to establish connection to the drivers from the inside.

While Scope is reloading any output would temporarily go into a black hole but that wouldn't interrupt the other apps.

Of course there are issues like how do you know how many ASIO ports your project will need?, but there are always solutions.

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:06 am

oh and nevermind the alphabet

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:08 am

my point is, being a 6dsp man, i find myself rendering my cw- sounds all the time, and giving my synths 0 voices fore my next progression. an automated swap would make life a whole lot easier.

Rob van Berkel · Post by **Rob van Berkel** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:56 am

Wouldn't it be possible to create (with SDK?) some sort of 'insert-rack' in which you load your synths and effects?
The rack would have for example 8 slots, each slot would have its midi input, some audio inputs (2), and 2 stereo fx inserts.
Then, by switching presets in the insert-rack, you unload old synths and effects, and load new ones. Saving a preset would auto save all loaded synth and fx settings.

Ok, I do have sdk, but I'm not yet able to code this. I recall Shayne White being busy with SDK to create a multi-channel stereo mixer with stereo inserts. How much does that differ (jn coding) from what I suggest here?

Cheers,
Rob

[ This Message was edited by: Rob van Berkel on 2004-12-01 06:05 ]

johnbowen · Post by **johnbowen** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:32 am

Rob,
The insert slots can't handle MIDI signals, that's one main problem (believe me, I've tried!!)

cheers,

Post by **hubird** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:09 am

About ASIO swapping: if you choose in Cubase 'Options/Audio/disable audio, you can change Scope projects, or swap ASIO in a project without violating Cubase

It saves you at least a restart of your sequencer

Rob van Berkel · Post by **Rob van Berkel** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:11 am

On 2004-12-01 08:32, johnbowen wrote:
Rob,
The insert slots can't handle MIDI signals, that's one main problem (believe me, I've tried!!)

cheers,

Basicly, what you're saying is that automation (by midi) on insert-effects in one of the standard mixers doesn't work either?
I never tried this, but it seemed so logical to me.
Pitty...

Rob

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:16 am

The way I work around this isn't too difficult or time consuming (OK, I have 12 DSPs now, but it was 6 for some time...)

You wish to:

a) unload the devices needed
b) load the devices needed
c) do the routing you preset
f) do all this WITHOUT requiring a dis/reconecting nececary audio devs (ASIO driver in example.

Check the 'unload ASIO drivers in background' box in the VST Multitrack dialog (Cubase).

Switch to SFP.

Load the project containing the configuration you desire.

Go!

I found it particularly useful if e.g. wishing to use a DSP-heavy mastering chain in a project. I'd have one 'development' project which I'd use to create a mix, then switch to my 'mastering' project (using the above technique) and master away!

It's not even necesary to pre-create the projects using this technique. One could just as easily build a project on the fly, or even edit the current project to suit your needs, then save that under a different name.

Royston

doodyrh · Post by **doodyrh** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:16 am

On 2004-12-01 08:32, johnbowen wrote:
The insert slots can't handle MIDI signals, that's one main problem (believe me, I've tried!!)

I thought that that was what you had done here, (9th paragraph)

As well as the new effects mentioned above, the Effects Insert Rack with 6 inserts allows you to drop effects from the Pulsar browser straight on to the rack, and then adjust wet and dry amounts with the rack controls.

although I don't have it.
(also discussed in the thread I linked to above)

[ This Message was edited by: doodyrh on 2004-12-01 11:20 ]

doodyrh · Post by **doodyrh** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:17 am

On 2004-12-01 09:09, hubird wrote:
About ASIO swapping: if you choose in Cubase 'Options/Audio/disable audio, you can change Scope projects, or swap ASIO in a project without violating Cubase
It saves you at least a restart of your sequencer

Excellent

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:00 pm

Sorry, I have enough DSP here.

And anyway, technically speaking, I can already do that kind of stuff just loading and saving projects. Logic will just pop up a dialog about restarting or "relaunch" (of the ASIO driver), and relaunch has worked 100% of the time for me. Altho obviously, what you suggest would be pretty neat. Being able to change/switch projects, using MIDI would be pretty fun in a live environement.

Some sort of MIDI-autoamable way of loading deleting and routing devices (autorouting is already partially there I guess) would probably be a step in this direction. But it'd have to be handled by SFP, not sure you can do this with SDK.

On the other hand, I figure you might be able to do alot of that with just a mixer and presets. With a mixer that could load synths as "inserts", you'd be halfway there already.

Post by **hubird** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:14 pm

On 2004-12-01 11:17, doodyrh wrote:
On 2004-12-01 09:09, hubird wrote:
About ASIO swapping: if you choose in Cubase 'Options/Audio/disable audio, you can change Scope projects, or swap ASIO in a project without violating Cubase
It saves you at least a restart of your sequencer
Excellent

I got this idea from someone on planetz, I forgot who it was, so I hand this over

It's a great trick, I still feel ashamed that I didn't find it by myself in all those Cubase years

Counterparts memorises the same trick in Cubase SX (?), I'm still on v.5, thanks to Creamware's lacking OSX support...
In fact the trick makes the workaround of Counterparts very acceptable, you're ready in half a minute or so.
I also have a few standard projects, like most of you I guess

cheers.

Rob van Berkel · Post by **Rob van Berkel** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:54 am

On 2004-12-01 15:00, symbiote wrote:

With a mixer that could load synths as "inserts", you'd be halfway there already.

That was exactly what I suggested, but John tells us he has tried it, and it didn't work, because of the inability to handle midi in the inserts.
Loading a synth in an insert is one thing but to play it, it will have to receive midi (preferably from the 'insert-slot-rack' or you'll end up rerouting the exterior of the rack everytime you reload a preset)
The idea tickles me, but I don't have enough skills yet in the SDK to try and work things out.
On the other hand, John said it didn't work, so I guess I'll have to trust him on that.

Cheers,
Rob

doodyrh · Post by **doodyrh** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:54 am

On 2004-12-01 20:14, hubird wrote:
I still feel ashamed that I didn't find it by myself in all those Cubase years

Me too.

On 2004-12-02 02:54, Rob van Berkel wrote:
John said it didn't work, so I guess I'll have to trust him on that.

I guess so.

johnbowen · Post by **johnbowen** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:25 am

doodyrh,

Inserting Effects (in the Prophet Plus, or any device, such as a mixer, etc.) is not a problem, since they don't deal with MIDI signals. At the moment, the insert object can only take synchronous signals (as far as I'vew been able to test). In the old SDK there are converters for asynchronous signals (to convert to synchronous), but not for MIDI signals. I tried for many hours trying to get something to convert MIDI to synchronous, as it seems like it should be fairly easy, but never found the right object. However, there could still be something in the new SDK (I don't have it) that allows this conversion, in which case I would happily stand corrected! Or, perhaps another developer out there has discovered something? I'd love it if I could use MIDI signals into an insert slot!

cheers,
John b.
zarg music

johnbowen · Post by **johnbowen** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:39 am

You know, there IS something about MIDI in the InsertEffects Module...I just remembered, after re-reading this thread. There's a parameter called 'MidiOn', but I have no idea what it's for, or how it's supposed to work....but there is some reference to using MIDI Controllers for whatever gets dropped into the slot, so...perhaps you could assign MIDI Controllers to the knobs of your inserted effect? As for inserting a complete synth, and have it play from the regular MIDI stream...that's what I was talking about, and I couldn't find a way to make that work.

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:08 am

Hmm, I'm pretty sure I've MIDI-controlled insert effects before. I don't know if all effects are wired for it, but it works with the Creamware plugins.

[fiddle fiddle]

Just tried it, definitely works in STM2448. I don't have time to whipe up a proof-of-concept insert-synth today, but I'm definitely going to mess around with stuff