Forced by a powersurge (causing a fried MB/CPU) to upgrade to a new DAW , I'm looking for a more powerfull and pro setup with some external dsp power. Have been increasingly getting involved in some commercial soundscape work and want as suchh be able to deliver good quality and be prepared for surround mixing as well.
With a budget around 750 Euro -for the soundcard(s) alone - and after scavenging old SOS copies and audioforums, I'm virtually decided on following setup :
My thinkpattern is as follows, i want to offload an important part of the efx chainn onto dedicated dsp . These I'm splitting up between the "pure efx" and the "mixdown efx" .
At first i was thinking to go all Creamware Project (Pulsar board) , but the pricetag held me back as well as the perception that Creamware seems more synthesis axed with a lesser mix-edge.
My synthesis needs are less important though , and the bundle as offered now with the Scope Home with and STS sampler ànd Modular III synth should keep me happy for some time, especially if I don't need to dedicate resources to mixdown efx.
For the I/O needs and final mixdown stage , I've decided on the Mixtreme 192 powerpack with 16 I/O where I can ofload the heavier mixdown efx ontoo the Mixtreme DSP. ( http://www.sydec.be/Products/Details/ID ... er+Pak+16/ and http://www.sydec.be/Products/Details/ID ... treme+192/ )
Both cards have interesting routing options ... and that's where my question comes .
Will the Mixtreme card and sw also see the Luna and viceversa so that -if necessary - I can internally pipe the audio ?
Anyone having experience with this kind of setup and/or advise for/against it ?
Can anyone shed a light on the properties & possibilities of either board for surround mixing 'cause the respectibe sites are quite vague on that ?
Thanks in advance for your constructive comments.
Scope Home & Mixtreme 16 powerpack
Maybe somemore background on my workflow.
I send a lot of time creating textures/sequences in AudioMulch and Bidule after which they get assembled and multitracked in Ableton Live . So this is pretty much all audio we're speaking here . Not so much midi sequencing à la Cubase etc. . I have always been an audio kinda artist that's how come ...
Now with the advent of Live 4.XX we have the midi sequencing possibility .
Unfortunately good vsti's often equal high horsepower PC's and the faster the cpu's the higher the demands raise on the system for latest cry good vsti's (and in fact vsts as well) ... and that's a kind of trap i'd Like to avoid in som way by using dedicated dsp's.
I like to think that by offloading the kind of synth/sampler to the dedicated dspboard ), I'll make better and longer use of the PC CPU for other tasks/applications. And that's why I'm eyeing the Luna in this setup : in order to use the STS sampler or Modular III , sequenced by Live3 but keeping the PC CPU as much as possible for Live and leaving the synth/sampler side to the Luna DSP.
Same thing on the mixdown/mastering side where I'm looking at the mixtreme : here the DSP can take care of the power needed to have excellent mastering efx where the equalperforming plugins on a PC will tax the CPU accordingly and hitting the cpuceiling much faster of possibilities of the application(s) i'm using.
If I had the money available I'd probably go straight for The Scope Project or Professional , but i have to balance the checkbook and that's why I was thinking about doing it in this -creative- way ....
Basically I would have :
main application ableton playing audio files and midi files , where the midi files would power eg. the Modular III and where all the output would be routed into the Mixtreme for final mixdown ...
I send a lot of time creating textures/sequences in AudioMulch and Bidule after which they get assembled and multitracked in Ableton Live . So this is pretty much all audio we're speaking here . Not so much midi sequencing à la Cubase etc. . I have always been an audio kinda artist that's how come ...
Now with the advent of Live 4.XX we have the midi sequencing possibility .
Unfortunately good vsti's often equal high horsepower PC's and the faster the cpu's the higher the demands raise on the system for latest cry good vsti's (and in fact vsts as well) ... and that's a kind of trap i'd Like to avoid in som way by using dedicated dsp's.
I like to think that by offloading the kind of synth/sampler to the dedicated dspboard ), I'll make better and longer use of the PC CPU for other tasks/applications. And that's why I'm eyeing the Luna in this setup : in order to use the STS sampler or Modular III , sequenced by Live3 but keeping the PC CPU as much as possible for Live and leaving the synth/sampler side to the Luna DSP.
Same thing on the mixdown/mastering side where I'm looking at the mixtreme : here the DSP can take care of the power needed to have excellent mastering efx where the equalperforming plugins on a PC will tax the CPU accordingly and hitting the cpuceiling much faster of possibilities of the application(s) i'm using.
If I had the money available I'd probably go straight for The Scope Project or Professional , but i have to balance the checkbook and that's why I was thinking about doing it in this -creative- way ....
Basically I would have :
main application ableton playing audio files and midi files , where the midi files would power eg. the Modular III and where all the output would be routed into the Mixtreme for final mixdown ...
i dunno...
that looks like a nice product, but it doesn't really give much advantage beyond i/o. all the effects will be vst and on the cpu, so you might as well just use the mixer in your sequencer. that product is just a glorified i/o card(maybe a good one).....
the scope products are VERY much mix oriented and can do much of that work for you in conjunction with your sequencer. it's true that the project is more money, but it will give you much more for your money. also, with the scalability of the whole system, starting with the home and the home i/o is not a dead end move. one other thing to consider about the scope cards, especially the bigger ones with more plugins, is that even when the pci card becomes obsolete, it will still be useful in an old machine using the adat connectors to give you a 20 channel auxilliary mixer, effects and multitimbral synths. in other words it is a god long term investment. most i/o cards are junk in a couple of years.
that looks like a nice product, but it doesn't really give much advantage beyond i/o. all the effects will be vst and on the cpu, so you might as well just use the mixer in your sequencer. that product is just a glorified i/o card(maybe a good one).....
the scope products are VERY much mix oriented and can do much of that work for you in conjunction with your sequencer. it's true that the project is more money, but it will give you much more for your money. also, with the scalability of the whole system, starting with the home and the home i/o is not a dead end move. one other thing to consider about the scope cards, especially the bigger ones with more plugins, is that even when the pci card becomes obsolete, it will still be useful in an old machine using the adat connectors to give you a 20 channel auxilliary mixer, effects and multitimbral synths. in other words it is a god long term investment. most i/o cards are junk in a couple of years.
Thanx for the reply.
In fact the native mixer environment and efx aren't on the CPU as this snippet shows, but off the dsp. You are correct that VST efx are host CPU based, but that's exactly what I want to get away from
:
(begin quote)
- A 128-column, fully user-configurable DSP-powered software mixer based on the mixer section of the Soundscape Editor.
- Support for exclusive DSP-powered effects and processing with plug-ins from Sydec Audio Engineering and other world renowned developers such as Drawmer, Cedar Audio, TC Works, Dolby Laboratories Inc., Aphex and more…
- Direct compatibility with VST and VSTi plug-ins in V4.0/4.1 of the Soundscape Mixer software (VST and VSTi plug-ins running on the host computer’s CPU can be inserted anywhere in the Mixtreme mixer just like DSP-powered plug-ins).
(end quote)
do have the impression that the Mixtreme is an underrated solution and from what I've read there should be excellent routing solutions . Just wonder if the mixtreme mixer would internally be able to "see" the Luna and that i could route it's audio as I -described above ... or if I would have to physically patch the Luna intoo the Mixtreme and what either solution would mean in terms of latency (compensation)
In fact I wanted to use the Luna I/O as well on the send of my Spirit folio mixer, alternatively as a quick way to feed my turntable sampling source to the STS sampler or for some creative efx on other outboard gear ... (wonder how CPU intensive those granular efx are ?)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mbazzy on 2004-12-01 04:23 ]</font>
In fact the native mixer environment and efx aren't on the CPU as this snippet shows, but off the dsp. You are correct that VST efx are host CPU based, but that's exactly what I want to get away from
:(begin quote)
- A 128-column, fully user-configurable DSP-powered software mixer based on the mixer section of the Soundscape Editor.
- Support for exclusive DSP-powered effects and processing with plug-ins from Sydec Audio Engineering and other world renowned developers such as Drawmer, Cedar Audio, TC Works, Dolby Laboratories Inc., Aphex and more…
- Direct compatibility with VST and VSTi plug-ins in V4.0/4.1 of the Soundscape Mixer software (VST and VSTi plug-ins running on the host computer’s CPU can be inserted anywhere in the Mixtreme mixer just like DSP-powered plug-ins).
(end quote)
do have the impression that the Mixtreme is an underrated solution and from what I've read there should be excellent routing solutions . Just wonder if the mixtreme mixer would internally be able to "see" the Luna and that i could route it's audio as I -described above ... or if I would have to physically patch the Luna intoo the Mixtreme and what either solution would mean in terms of latency (compensation)
In fact I wanted to use the Luna I/O as well on the send of my Spirit folio mixer, alternatively as a quick way to feed my turntable sampling source to the STS sampler or for some creative efx on other outboard gear ... (wonder how CPU intensive those granular efx are ?)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mbazzy on 2004-12-01 04:23 ]</font>
I'm not sure why you'd want to get both a Luna and a Mixtreme card. You're not going to offload a terrible amount off CPU with a Luna.
The Mixtreme card looks ok, but doesn't have alot of DSP plugins, they don't specify the type of DSP they use or the specs, nor how much plugins you can expect to run. Maybe I haven't dug enough tho. I'm sure it's a pretty good card still, doesn't look like a bad choice at all. Also, they use Motorola DSPs, which means that you'll probably see more "big name" plugin developpers releasing plugins for them.
I'd suggest you go for either of these cards, but not both at the same time (at least, not while you are on a limited budget
). Routing and using these 2 cards together will probably give you hell (unless you use the Luna in XTC mode.) A Pulsar2 (Scope Project now I guess ) will give you more bang-for-buck and satisfaction DSP-wise than a Luna, and is just fine for mixing down and effects.
If you need i/o, you'd probably be better off with a Luna2+i/o box and UAD or TC Powercore card for mixing down. Might find a few good eals on those on eBay, or wait until the release a new product, which will probably means lots of UAD-1 on blowout.
Sounds like the Mixtreme doesn't come with an i/o box, so if you go with Luna2+Mixtreme, you'd have to get an additional i/o box for it, since I don't think you'll be able to mixdown on the Mixtreme using the Luna2 i/o box very easily.
I don't know ASIO enough to know wether you can use 2 ASIO drivers (one for each card) at the same time with a sequencer. If it's possible, then I guess you can arrange something as far as using both cards go, but you'll have alot of latency. If you can only use a single ASIO driver per sequencer, forget about using these 2 cards together with any kind of usable latency.
Also, err, forget about using the STS sampler for serious work. It still needs a fair bit of fixing.
The Mixtreme card looks ok, but doesn't have alot of DSP plugins, they don't specify the type of DSP they use or the specs, nor how much plugins you can expect to run. Maybe I haven't dug enough tho. I'm sure it's a pretty good card still, doesn't look like a bad choice at all. Also, they use Motorola DSPs, which means that you'll probably see more "big name" plugin developpers releasing plugins for them.
I'd suggest you go for either of these cards, but not both at the same time (at least, not while you are on a limited budget
). Routing and using these 2 cards together will probably give you hell (unless you use the Luna in XTC mode.) A Pulsar2 (Scope Project now I guess ) will give you more bang-for-buck and satisfaction DSP-wise than a Luna, and is just fine for mixing down and effects.If you need i/o, you'd probably be better off with a Luna2+i/o box and UAD or TC Powercore card for mixing down. Might find a few good eals on those on eBay, or wait until the release a new product, which will probably means lots of UAD-1 on blowout
.Sounds like the Mixtreme doesn't come with an i/o box, so if you go with Luna2+Mixtreme, you'd have to get an additional i/o box for it, since I don't think you'll be able to mixdown on the Mixtreme using the Luna2 i/o box very easily.
I don't know ASIO enough to know wether you can use 2 ASIO drivers (one for each card) at the same time with a sequencer. If it's possible, then I guess you can arrange something as far as using both cards go, but you'll have alot of latency. If you can only use a single ASIO driver per sequencer, forget about using these 2 cards together with any kind of usable latency.
Also, err, forget about using the STS sampler for serious work
. It still needs a fair bit of fixing.Thanx for the very informative reply.
Happens that I just have started looking at the UAD-1 and PowerCore DSP boards . They seem like a good solution for the mixdown/mastering process ... and as a big plus would allow to remain in my main hostenvironment (Ableton Live)
As you say , paired to a Luna+ i/o box ... mmm , certainly very worthwhile considering ...
How would the Luna do for more creative dsp efx à la granulators or so ?
(btw, The Mixtreme does come at this moment with a 16 i/o box (2 X8 I/O in fact) ... )
Happens that I just have started looking at the UAD-1 and PowerCore DSP boards . They seem like a good solution for the mixdown/mastering process ... and as a big plus would allow to remain in my main hostenvironment (Ableton Live)
As you say , paired to a Luna+ i/o box ... mmm , certainly very worthwhile considering ...
How would the Luna do for more creative dsp efx à la granulators or so ?
(btw, The Mixtreme does come at this moment with a 16 i/o box (2 X8 I/O in fact) ... )
If both come with i/o, then I guess it's mostly a matter of which architecture you prefer. If you like synthesis and weird effects and modular synths, then Creamware is definitely the way to go.
There's a granulator device made by Adern (www.adern.com) that should run just fine on a Luna2 (doesn't come with it tho, you have to get separately, but quite worth it), and you can easily add more cards as you go. And it's not too hard to add a UAD/Powercore if you need/want different mixdown algos. I find that the Creamware ones do a great job tho, completely usable, but the UAD/TC algos are pretty awesome too, and have a good processing-power-to-buck ratio.
The Mixtreme sounds like it'll have mostly mixdown effects and not many synthesis or weird-experimental type of stuff. Also I'm not sure if it supports connecting several cards together to get a single DSP "pool" like you can get with the Creamware stuff.
There's a granulator device made by Adern (www.adern.com) that should run just fine on a Luna2 (doesn't come with it tho, you have to get separately, but quite worth it
), and you can easily add more cards as you go. And it's not too hard to add a UAD/Powercore if you need/want different mixdown algos. I find that the Creamware ones do a great job tho, completely usable, but the UAD/TC algos are pretty awesome too, and have a good processing-power-to-buck ratio.The Mixtreme sounds like it'll have mostly mixdown effects and not many synthesis or weird-experimental type of stuff. Also I'm not sure if it supports connecting several cards together to get a single DSP "pool" like you can get with the Creamware stuff.
The Mixtreme is not a bad device at all.. the drivers are nice and the mixing is cool too. I don't know what the routing is like, but the plugins are quite expensive. However the algorighms are good.
If you're thinking of UAD/Powercore you should be aware that Ableton doesnt support PDC which is essential with these cards.
If you're thinking of UAD/Powercore you should be aware that Ableton doesnt support PDC which is essential with these cards.