Any native-english speakers here? Help needed

spoimala · Post by **spoimala** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 5:12 pm

My band (http://www.morian.info) is going to record an album. And as we are heading for world-wide success, we sing in english

However, none of us are native in english, so if somebody could help us a little? You should only read our texts and correct if there are some "bad sentences" or other mistakes.
I can check your finnish words as a favor in return

[ This Message was edited by: spoimala on 2003-08-01 18:13 ]

dehuszar · Post by **dehuszar** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 8:53 pm

Sure, toss em my way.

Sam

Post by **Neil B** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 2:00 am

I'll be pleased to help - email me & we can discuss formats (txt files, Microsoft Word etc).

If you achieve world wide success I would expect 2% of the royalties

ChrisWerner · Post by **ChrisWerner** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 3:40 am

Ahh, Neil wants to go for another holiday.

Good luck spoimala.

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 8:02 am

i always love correcting people's English (gives me a false sense of superiority

) so please post some files my way, preferably text as i'm on Mac and don't have those Microsoft thingies. Send to arkadin666@yahoo.co.uk .

Just a quickie from your web page:

We have recorded two singles: Another ruined life and Neverending moment. You can download them at the music section among other songs.

although not incorrect, it would read better as:

We have recorded two singles: Another ruined life and Neverending moment. You can download them from the music section as well as other songs.

See? Very subtle differences but they can make all the difference.

Mr Arkadin.

[ This Message was edited by: Mr Arkadin on 2003-08-02 09:03 ]

Post by **Neil B** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 9:54 am

Well spotted Mr Arkadin.
I can tell that you don't have those Microsoft "thingies" though because the spell checker in Word shows it as "never-ending". How's the false sense of superiority today?

Just kidding

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 12:48 pm

We have recorded two singles: Another ruined life and Neverending moment. You can download them at the music section among other songs.

I'd like to offer an even more refined version... (soon we can play "spot the difference"

)

We have recorded two singles: Another Ruined Life and Neverending Moment. These and other songs can be downloaded from the music section.

The devil is in the detail as they say.

Edit: I'd regard the lack of hypenation in "Neverending" as artistic perogative...

[ This Message was edited by: Spirit on 2003-08-02 13:50 ]

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 3:47 pm

Hmmm, yes that reads a little better. However, to further add to the hyphen argument about artistic intent, i felt the lower case letters in the titles could also be viewed as artistic intent (as, indeed, is my use of a lower case "i" which is something i picked up after reading E.E. Cummings).

spoimala · Post by **spoimala** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:43 pm

Okay, thank you guys ALOT! I knew I can trust you

So, ASAP (as I get the lyrics from the author

) I will send them to all of you privately and check all the offerings and choose the best (that sounds better, fits the singer best etc)

And thanks for idea, you can check the web site also

(But only after I'm finished with the new version)

Yeah, I'm not going to send any M$ file formats, I'm gonna send plain text.

Oh yes, a minor question... as I've been told, many US citizens (and many other native english speakers) are not aware of grammar

I think it's the same for every language... so, are you "educated people" that we're getting "Hi-Fi lyrics"

[ This Message was edited by: spoimala on 2003-08-02 17:49 ]

Post by **Neil B** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 2:18 am

Spoimala,
you have to appreciate that America is still a young country (only 200 years old), but in that short time has excelled in destroying the English language

In America "Grammar" is probably an ageing relative married to "Grammpa"

Apologies to all Americans - just kidding.

"Educated" is a relative thing too.
On a serious note, you do need good English and good grammar for your album/lyrics/website, but you should also consider the following:
If you are going to be a world-wide success, then many of the readers will have English as a second language. Clarity will be more important than perfect old-school English grammar. Strange, old fashioned English words, correct as they may be, should be considered against a more general understanding.
Again, your market will be predominantly young. I personally feel that you should avoid text-message styles, but also maintain a balance that speaks to your audience in a "language" that they understand. Perhaps I'm too old for this, not having much contact with the age group you're aiming at.
Having said that, I do do a lot of proof reading for friends and even correct spelling mistakes and "tryping mitsakes" on my wife's shopping list!
If you want my help, I'm only too pleased to be of service.

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 6:14 am

If you are going to be a world-wide success, then many of the readers will have English as a second language. Clarity will be more important than perfect old-school English grammar.

Good point Neil. However, as English isn't Spoimala's first language then the clarity question will answer itself if you see what i mean, ie. if he understands our 'corrections' without having to use babelfish then presumably that is a fairly good yardstick for other's understanding it too.

i work on subtitles and credits for television programmes in the UK, so have quite a good eye for such things as the equipment rarely has spell-checkers and never has grammar-checkers, so i just use my brain and a dictionary for words i'm not sure of.

BTW, if you're sending lyrics, do you want correct English phrases or something that has the same syllable count?

[ This Message was edited by: Mr Arkadin on 2003-08-03 07:17 ]

spoimala · Post by **spoimala** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 7:18 am

Neil, of course, we want lyrics that "anybody" can understand. So, we ask only for "right phrases" not very sophisticated poetry with beautiful words.
(Although I myself like very much the old english "Thou shalt not kill", it's so beautiful but it's not our aim, we're not that kind of heavy metal band

)

There will maybe be some phrases of "street language", do you think it's bad? Very often people use phrases that are not strictly correct, but everybody understands and uses them.
(Also, I often read lyrics like "I wont never come back" which should AFAIK be "I will never come back" )

Mr Arkadin, good point. The melodies are mostly done, so we wouldn't like to rewrite everything... so, if we get the worst mistakes corrected, we are happy.

About the web site.. the new version will contain mostly the same texts, so if anybody is willing to check them, you can do it now as well. Thanks guys!

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 7:50 am

There will maybe be some phrases of "street language", do you think it's bad?

It's only bad if your lyrics go something like:
"Ya mothafuckin' little bitch ho dumbass cocksucker" or some such (sorry i've been working on Big Brother USA and the language is abysmal, its starting to rub off).

Mr Arkadin.

PS. i think double negatives like the ones you cite are best avoided if possible - it looks lazy, just listen to the last GirlsAloud single No Good Advice which must break the record for most double negatives inside of three minutes.

PPS. Also best avoided is the overuse of the word 'just' - seriously this is every songwriters lazy word for getting the syllable count up. Eg. if your lyric was:
"I can't get enough of your lovin' baby" and you needed one more syllable, the lazy writer would simply do this:
"I just can't get enough of your lovin' baby" - the 'just' is completely redundant. Just one of my personal bugbears (sic).

[ This Message was edited by: Mr Arkadin on 2003-08-03 08:59 ]

Post by **Neil B** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 10:50 am

Agree with all that's been said.
I think street phrases are very important - you're reaching today people in today's language (hopefully not as bad as Mr Arkadin's example

- wow, what an interesting sounding job you've got).

Anyway, having seen many of your posts to this site, I don't think you've got many problems at all with your English. Seems to me that anyone who helps will have an easy task.

"Thou shalt not kill"????? Forsooth, heavy metal hath rent mine head asunder

spoimala · Post by **spoimala** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:56 am

Neil, indeed, I've had many chats with US and UK citizens, and they have been surprised when I've told I'm not native too

But the problem is, I'm not the one who writes the lyrics and I'm not authoritative enough to correct them

Post by **garyb** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:17 am

never use street phrases without the appropriate context.it's very uncool to use them to sound cool.that behavior makes people laugh and deride.nowa'i'msayin?

poetry can't be judged by the same standard as prose.the point of language is communication,from the same root as commune or come unite.or community.the point is the message not the form that the message arrives in.poetry can have structure or be structureless.

and who will complain if it all sounds cool anyway?just having a neat sound is the main point.much american pop will show you that.there are popular songs by groups that are native english speakers that are obviously not trying.the way that a native speaker can help is just pointing out anything in the SONG(not the lyric sheets)that might sound foolish.as long as it SOUNDS like sense,no one will complain and they may even HEAR you.often,something will sound o.k.,even though it looks strange on paper.(and i wouldn't really speak the way i might write)