PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Hi,

Reason for this post is a recent discussion with a developer. Actually it's an on-going discussion, for about a year we're having it from time to time. He made some classics, renewing and unique devices. He is a pioneer.

Now he's on the edge. He wants to sell his DNS name, devices and DP. There's alternatives for his inspiration. Platforms that do not cost anything to develop for.

Let's face it: DSP is very expensive. Around 10.000Euro, AFAIK. That's a lot of CD's to sell. Probably not one DP'er makes a living of it. I think most of DP'ers work in music business, since a private person does not often spend the money worth a car on a program.

By now, there's so many devices, I'm not really looking for a new one, on the current DSPs. It's like the market is saturated.

If Creamware found a way for them to concentrate on developping the platform and let the DP'ers do the devices... I can imagine real big devices like STM2448 are not a one man's job, CW could assist in those by making an easier DP, with batch functions etc.

I know of DP'ers who sold not one device. And all of us are using free their devices. The developpers payed big bucks to give us free stuff. They don't get the latest and greatest atoms, but a glimpse of what it could be.

I did my best to convince him not to sell and I hope he sticks with us for another couple of years.

Any beginning DP'ers who need a hand with getting started, doing some apprentice ship with an experienced DP'er? Are you the one that gives him a reason not to sell his gear? Other hints for him why he should not spend his money and time on another platform, with a free DP? He doesn't care, but we do.


Have a nice weekend,

at0mic.

first off,those already using the platform w/success need to spread the word and increase the numbers using the platform,especially in the u.s.a.

The cost has always been roughly as it is now. Did developers come on early because they were given a card (or some special deal), or because the platform looked like being really big ?

Perhaps the deals have ended and even though SFP is an extrmely stable platform with many good devices, it may not seem to have the promise that, say, VSTi instruments have. It certainly hasn't got the reach or universal popularity.

If you look at many of the VSTi being sold for US$30 - US$100 they are nowhere near as good as many FREE products on the SFP platform.

From all this I can only summise that Creamware want to do all their own development.

What are the advantages to that ? It would be interesting to know the calculations of extra revenue gained by doing all development of new devices - versus - possible card sales lost through the lack of third party advertsing and support.

It may also be tied to Creamware's ideas of WHY people buy a card. Are they influenced by good third party devices ?

Also look at products like Reason. You can ertainly imagine that REALLY taking off if third-prty developers could build modules to slot in the rack. Yet that never looks like happening. Why ? Is it because of the code that would have to be shared ? Or is it just not good economic sense (even though it looks like a winner) ? Perhaps they operate on the same basic philosophy as CW ?

Lots of questions, no answers.

Imho we CW customers are (maybe accidently) a reason ourselves that it looks like CW wants to do all business on their own.

...I've spent already that much on the hardware, so I expect it to include premium devices that I can get get my thing going...
sounds familiar ?

When there wasn't a MasterVerb it seemed to me this was intentionally left to third parties, as anyone needs a reverb and several were available.

... but the UAD has that great compressor...
Anyone needs a 'great' compressor, so now they bundle Vinco.

I confess myself couldn't resist the Propack for 149 bucks, that's a joke even if the samplers have some annoyences. Any of the synths might be put in a nicely designed box and yield 1-2k € on the market.

That attitude doesn't leave much space and you'll have to be really good as a developer to take that challenge of competition.

But it wouldn't be enough: there's also a smart marketing required for your stuff.
Noone buys on facts. You'll need emotions. That's what all those nice user interfaces are about. Or a company image, like (just an example) John Bowen, who IS a legend AND a capacity in sound design.
Many developers are focused too much on the techie side of the work.
At least if they realize their situation, it would be easier to change than becoming a programming wiz.

I'd estimate the chances to succeed with Scope DP are several times higher than with mediocre VSTi stuff.
The average user is the dude with half a dozen CDs full of warez.
Most of the successful native devices are sold by big companies like Steinberg, Native Instruments or SonicFoundry, to name a few.
You'd be better off with roulette in the casino than giving your stuff for free and hope that it gets licensed by a major company.

From my personal experience: I once didn't invest 15k € on a certain developement system, because I expected M$ or Symantec might come up with a similiar one for a tenth of the price. This never happened and did cost me an awful lot of business opportunities, in fact at least 10 times the money I was afraid to spend.

cheers, Tom

astroman, I feel sorry for you having missed the chance on that package, but I doubt there's 5 DP sold by Creamware that have paid for itself even by the devices made on it. I'm not talking about making a living, don't misunderstand

There is great advantages on DP. But it's not even for even experienced Modular designers: DP is very expensive! While it's quite easy to make magnificent sounds with the DSP atoms, you need to be a designer freak with enough savings to get started. This is fine to limit a certain wild-grow like there seems to be for example in VST world. Creamware has a disadvantage that it's got a much smaller user base, to support developers. Like to bèta-test, create presets etc., processes which take a long time and different aspirations.

I see some opportunities but have no reason to assume they are realistic. The first is a 3rd generation card. Remember, when the 1st generation cards came out, they were each as powerfull as a CPU at that time. This could give a nice push in card sales, and user group!

As second, the cards may be a little too complex for the average home user, I hope future platform developments can make things much easier. SFP was a big step forward: it's more ergonomic, with great drivers, preset lists and compatibility with older projects, etc. I realise this takes looong time to grow and believe it is only a matter of time.

As third, Creamware does reserve its latest and greatest, plus some other, atoms for it's own devices. Like they want to get commercial advantage. I understand creation of atoms is something very complex which can only be done by a very small amount of people. Maybe CW could divide the atoms to be used only in commercial devices, or put other restrictions on it. For example sequencer and wavetable atoms, and some filters are not included in DP.

Maybe it's all just a matter of time for it to grow...

_________________
at0mic agency

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: at0mic on 2002-12-01 00:32 ]</font>

yeah, Atomic, afterwards we always know better... but I've survived it and this will always remind me that at some points in life we'll simply have to take the risk

And in fact I was talking about making a living of the DSP programming stuff.
Imho DP is intended to be used that way. It is a very powerful system (like you pointed out with the Modular example) and a no go for the '...let me see how programming works...' guy. There are dozens of men years of developement time included which spare you a lot on the 'chips and potatoes' stuff.
It enables a small team or even a single developer to do things otherwise impossible.
In that context the price is more than justified, but of course this makes no sense if used just for fun or curiosity.
Dunno if it's still the case, but I've read that CW licenses (at additional costs) an even more low level interface and (more important) the whole hardware for OEM purpose.
Recently in a hifi shop (those wiered highenders with 10k € CD drives) I found a DSP (obviously Sharc) based box to adjust monitors to room specs of the studio, selling for about 3.5 k €. This has probably nothing to do with CW but it could as well be done with DP. There are dozens of applications (not even limited to acoustics) where DP enables you to work in a small, profitable niche of the market.

I agree to your 3 points about the cards, which are designed for ambitioned studio owners, even if 'studio' means only a small place at home.

The retaining of atoms or modules for other reasons than licensing issues wouldn't be very nice, indeed.
I once asked about changing the contents of the tables of the Waldorf oscillators, but someone (Waldorf?) doesn't want people to modify it.
I dunno, but the expected launch of NOAH might have an influence on the current state of the developement system, too.

On the other hand the Modular offers to us non-DSP-assembler-wizzes the possibility to 'virtual program' our own devices.
CW might improve a somewhat customizable user interface for patches programmed by other users - but imho that doesn't qualify for selling standalones under one's own name.

cheers, Tom

Another thing, but not essential IMO cos we have some very good DP'ers: Why would a commercial company, a big name in the industry, invest money in DP and actually pay an engineer to create SFP devices?

We know there's plenty high quality plugins, but the average DAW user does not recognise names. He doesn't buy CW...

Btw, for those who are looking for ways to sponsor John and the planetz forums: John sells some neat effects in his own planetz product line and he cooperates with other DP'ers in Orbitone and Fxpansion.

Support your local dealer

once more,it's up to the users.you want the platform to flourish?better let someone know that it's a better deal than layla or digi001......

garyb, I tried a couple of times but they ran off in a panic. Maybe it's just me.

Btw, I met some people and what I've learned makes this thread absolete IMHO. I'm sorry for disturbing planetz w this. If only I knew then what I know now.

We'll be fine.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: at0mic on 2002-12-05 08:05 ]</font>

Better ammend your title to Sphinx-like and enigmatic levitating fire-breathing overlord.

On 2002-12-05 08:04, at0mic wrote:

Btw, I met some people and what I've learned makes this thread absolete IMHO. I'm sorry for disturbing planetz w this. If only I knew then what I know now.

We want to know too!

yeah, what's the story?

I only hope the DP'er I started this topic for rethinks his idea. Different DP'ers have different ways of work. There's solutions to some of his problems and I hope he's going to have a look at it.

Give up Atomic, you're just making it worse for us

oki.