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Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2002 6:26 pm
by snoopy4ever
I'm about to start building a second floor on my house.. it's someting I've been thinking for 3 years now. And of course * :grin: * I can't help to dream about a separate space for a bigger studio up there. I know you guys are well experienced on lots of sound subjects and studio facilites. So If you have ANY information about walls, doors and windows desing, ceilings, wall sound treatment, please let me know. I'm preparing a special rectangular space of 27 square meters (about 250 square feet) I'll split it on the half to build a separate control room and a recording room. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks in Advance

Snoopy

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: snoopy4ever on 2002-09-25 19:27 ]</font>

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2002 10:30 pm
by eliam
It all depends on: how much time and money you want to spend? If you really want to take the time to do it right once and for all, then I suggest you find someone who builds studios for advice.

But again: do you want to produce professionally or just as a hobby? Imo, it can be (a little) more investment to build something really well but it could be a good investment in the long run...

I participated to a studio's conception and building, and this is an art in itself...

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2002 11:21 pm
by Spirit
I once used ribbed black rubber carpet underlay as a sound insulator. It worked brilliantly as sound proofing, was very cheap, and gave the studio a really hardcore look: black ribbed rubber !

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2002 11:28 pm
by at0m

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 3:17 am
by garyb
the floor is really key.(you don't want it resonant and adding low end to the room) sand is good! :wink: check auralex, http://www.auralex.com/ and asc, http://www.acousticsciences.com/ for diffusion and bass trap solutions that are reasonably priced.

it's hard to get a good focused sound if the room's acoustics are poor......

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 8:40 am
by Sunshine
I´ve just turned one of my rooms into a mastering room this year, which simply means that I´ve done all the treatment that was needed. Don´t be worried! You can fix any problem that occurs. There are lots of basics that needs to be known but there are some good recourses as well. The problem whith those recourses.....they all follow different theories which leads to different constructions. So please don´t get confused. There are many ways how you can treat a room. The question is, are you treating an already existing room or are you building that room from scratch. The smaller the room the more compatible you are to a living room, in reference to early reflections and bass response. So a listening room (especially for mastering) doesn´t have to be necessarily large as many people think. In fact if you manage to control the pressure in the low freq spectrum, there are some benefits over large listening rooms, because the early reflections are shorter than the ones in the sound source you are listening to. I can give you some internet links, but whatever you do should really depend on what you are hearing in that room. You need to walk around in that room and find out what you hear/measure at the corners, walls and ceiling...

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... 0Chart.htm
http://www.roister.com/eng/comp-gen.htm
http://www.tubetrap.com/tt.htm
http://ic.net/~jtgale/diy2.htm
http://www.silentsource.com/diffusors.html
http://www.primacoustic.com/


All those links above are just for basic understanding.......

Personally, I´m no big fan of Auralex´s foam products, although they are much better than ordinary foam....

The best bass absorber will always be the "tube trap". But you will barely find information in the net because ASC has got the monopoly on them. And the theory behind the tube trap is really hard to find in the net. They were invented 1947 and most information has somehow disapeared.

I´m also no big fan of SAE´s membrane absorbers, although they are the only ones that don´t absorb high freqs too much. And when placed strategically right you can minimize their deficit of causing phase problems. I´m using them myself...

An "Anechoic chamber" makes you hear what comes out of the monitors and nothing else, but the sound will suffer severe incompatibilites with the standard living room. (not suited for mastering)

But the hard part is getting rid of those problem freqs whithout loosing the liveliness of the room (that´s why I´m against foam products). Take a look at the absorption coefficient chart and you will notice that most materials do absorb high freqs but only very little bass freqs. They lead to a dead sounding room whith no emotion and enjoyment. Also changing the balance towards the problem freqs. It´s easy to make matters worse! However, the only way to make a room sound livelier again is to diffuse mid/high freqs again. Whether you place them at the back of your room, as official AES papers state, or at the front depends on how you monitors are placed and what you have done to minimize those bass freqs around your monitors.



So this is only my opinion:

You need to walk around and find out how different places in your room do sound. This is the first thing you should do! Move around and find out where those freqs do build up strongest. Ceiling and corners are always the first suspects. It´s also advisable to build such a room whith different kind of surfaces/materials, based on different theories because following only one concept will lead to a mono-"aural" sounding room based on principles that only fits the average control room standards...


-Damp the wall behind your monitors...And set up some kind of diffusion in between and/or above you monitors.

-Treat all your corners whith bass traps. Wether they are tube traps or ordinary corner traps, depends on how your bass response sounds. (Pressure=tube) (frequency=fiber)

-Everywhere where a walls meets the ceiling you need to do something... You could put some 2" thick glass-fiber all along those edges (minimum width of 30cm).

-The worst thing for me is to place monitors into side corners whith side walls minimizing the stereo-field. There is almost nothing you can do to treat that dificit.

-Avoid parallel walls as much as you can to minimize standing waves. There are three types of standing waves. (too complicated to explain now). However calculating standing waves is interesting, but the only way to react to those outcomes is to built Holmholz resonators (diffcult to built and I don´t recommend them) or if your going to build a room from scratch... http://www.mcsquared.com/metricmodes.htm

-The ceiling shouldn´t reflect high frequencies to avoid flutter echo. Place some kind of thin curtain or whatever to the ceiling. (everything absorbs high freqs). I have even built some tube traps for the ceiling....(at my place the basses built up in the middle of the room at the ceiling).

-A part of my back wall is built anechoic, reflecting absolutely nothing, killing whatever freqs do reach the wall.

-In the middle of the backwall (behind the chair) I´ve built another tube trap... Opposed to SAE college, I think that if a room should be suited for mastering, it shouldn´t diffuse in the middle of the back wall. The sound coming out of your monitors has crossed before reaching the wall and when diffused, will lead to a worse channel separation and dynamic-range, making stereo-field localisation even more difficult.

-On the ceiling behind the chair, you can built some panel absorbers, hanging from the ceiling (similar to SAE´s, just not as large). They prevent waves in the upper part of the room from going to the sides, finally leading the sound to that anechoic places at my backwall. That again did really make a great difference towards the bass response in the corners, leading to a pressure loss in the low freq area.

-Diffusion is the last part of treating your room. Dont´get worried when the room sounds to dead before you`ve done any diffusion. Diffusers are much too expensive IMO. So here are some alternatives... You can build those diffusors yourself, because they don´t have to look like the expensive ones at silentsource...they only have to diffuse. And certain things like steel wool, wooden/aluminium shalousies, bambus carpets, moskito nets, perl chain curtains, or even some plants could do a similar job. The finer the pattern of the material, the finer the sound. The denser the material, the more high freqs and all other freqs will get diffused....

-So, do whatever is necessary based on what you hear/measure and place things strategically right. I´ve always wanted to write down this little summary. It seemed to be the right moment to me....


Regards,
Bernhard

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:19 pm
by garyb
concur.(which means i agree,NOT the latin "with the dog",except in the ghetto sense :wink: )

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 5:20 pm
by snoopy4ever
Thank you guys for all your replys to this now I know a "really open question about studio construction"
On 2002-09-26 09:40, Sunshine wrote:
I´ve just turned one of my rooms into a mastering
.....they all follow different theories which leads to different constructions. So please don´t get confused..... et links, but whatever you do should really depend on what you are hearing in that room. You need to walk around in that room and find out what you hear/measure at the corners, walls and ceiling...

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... 0Chart.htm
http://www.roister.com/eng/comp-gen.htm
http://www.tubetrap.com/tt.htm
http://ic.net/~jtgale/diy2.htm
http://www.silentsource.com/diffusors.html
http://www.primacoustic.com/

etc, etc..etc.

Regards,
Bernhard
Wow Bernhard..
Way to go !!!..
Thanks so much for this complete reply.

Yes I'm starting to see that this studio building from scratch is kind of an art.

I'll have to print it and give it some brain effort to understand all your comments.

I'm going to build it from scratch.., I was thinking about to build it over a Teca Wood floor.. I think that would help. :roll: comments???

But given the extensive details about it I wanted to ask you about your comments on using Primacoustic studio solutions, and yes.. I'll have to split the problem into several parts in order to do it the right way, so you'll have to deal with my newbie questions.

Snoopy

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 9:05 pm
by DJATWORK
On 2002-09-25 19:26, snoopy4ever wrote:
I'm preparing a special rectangular space of 27 square meters (about 250 square feet)
You should think in the possibility of constructing symetric- non parallell walls. (like a tandem)...

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:48 am
by garyb
i know it'll be great!(if you don't run out of money......)

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 6:55 am
by Sunshine
„Primacoustic studio solutions":
Whether you go Primeacoustics or Auralex, doesn´t make a difference. They all offer complete solutions. And there are some people that swear on their stuff. But the difference to your situation is that you´re building your room from scatch. Auralex and Prime do all deal whith the same problem of having a rectangular room whith all its side effects. If possible, I wouldn´t built that room rectangular! You avoid the most severe standing waves (not all, even a triangle room has some standing waves) by building your room whithout parallel walls. A „standing wave" is nothing else than the resonant frequency between two surfaces, which disturbs dynamic integrity of your playback. As mentioned from DJATWORK, symmetry is very important. Nonetheless here are links whith Auralex kind of absorbers.
Http://home.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/St ... Grover.htm
Http://home.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/St ... /Jones.htm
Http://home.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/St ... s/Vern.htm


„I'm going to build it from scratch.. „
I wished I could also built a room from scratch... Here you can see how the most common from „scratch" build studios are designed under their surfaces
Http://home.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/St ... Kahuna.htm
http://home.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/St ... /Grey1.htm
http://home.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/St ... s/Egan.htm
http://home.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/Gu ... /page1.htm


„Teca Wood floor":
You are trying to use a kind of exotic wood because you are placed in Cost Rica right? Well, here´s a link to shows you some floor construction...
http://home.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/St ... eyman1.htm


Whith diffuser:
Http://home.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/St ... _Elvis.htm
Http://home.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/St ... Miller.htm
Http://home.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/St ... date_5.htm
Http://home.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/St ... joko_2.htm


Whith tubetraps:
Http://home.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/St ... atrock.htm


Whith optimized shape:
Http://home.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/St ... Sayers.htm
Http://home.locall.aunz.com/~johnsay/St ... s/Vern.htm


However, the problem these studios have to deal whith, is the fact that they are built too large. Meaning that the standing waves in their studios are into the sub-region, which again is very difficult to absorb! Only by treating the walls, floor and ceiling they manage to compensate. I like the ones whith the optimized shape much more (also similar to SAE´s contruction). IMO most of the studios have under-estimated the loss of compatibility to living-rooms, by building the ceiling too high. The hight of the ceiling is the only part of a room that most people have in common. So this may be the only standing wave that should/could be accepted!


But here I have some mastering rooms for you:
They have wooden floors, although AES & SAE do not recommend them! Meaning that they wanted to keep a certain compatibility to a living room, by creating that standing wave between floor and ceiling. They have treated the ceiling although you can´t see it in those pictures, reducing that resonant frequency between the ceiling and the floor a little.
Go to Http://www.emeraldsound.com/
Click on „masterphonics" and then on Room one or two.


Take your time !

Regards,
Bernhard

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sunshine on 2002-09-27 11:50 ]</font>

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 8:51 am
by valis
Excellent thread btw.

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:47 pm
by snoopy4ever
Hello pulsarians.

Thanks a lot to ALL of you.

Your comments had made me think about what I DON'T KNOW about acoustic treatment and isolation, even about sound in general.

So I've decided to get a book that I think is the right one for me:

"HOW TO BUILD A SMALL BUDGET RECORDING STUDIO FROM SCRATCH...With 12 Tested Designs". (...they forgot "FOR DUMMIES version" :grin: that's the right for me)

I've got the electronic version from amazon, mainly because I'm in a hurry, and I KNOW I have to catch up a lot.

Thanks again

Snoopy

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2002 9:39 am
by krizrox
I've got that book. It's ok but slightly out of date with the times and technology. Everest released a better book called "Sound Studio Construction on a Budget" which is a little more up to date and easier to understand.

And as indicated, there are so many wonderful on-line resources that you could spend weeks reading through all of them. When I was building my studio, I printed out quite a few of the better ones (the ones that seemed to ring true to me for one reason or another) and studied the information for a while before commiting any money to the project. I settled on Aurlex products because I liked the design and quality of their materials (and I had the funds to invest). Their application documents are actually fun to read and you don't need a phd to understand what they are explaining.

Good luck & have fun!!

ps: a few things I should mention which is hardly ever discussed anywhere....

Cheap foam has a tendancy to discolor quickly. Auralex and Sonex foam holds their color much better. I have some Sonex white foam which looks perfect after almost a year of use. Also, Auralex and Sonex cut their foam to exacting standards which makes their application/installation look much nicer.

Finally - if at all possible, avoid permanent installations of the materials. Try to come up with ways of "temporarily" mounting the materials. Modular is better. You may move one day :smile:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: krizrox on 2002-10-04 10:48 ]</font>

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2002 11:03 am
by voidar
I don't think a studio on the second floor, or that high up, is ideal when it comes to noise. I am talking about EM-interference etc.