PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

When the Hughes&Kettner guitar amp Zentera came out some one year ago, I instantly noticed that it used two 32 Bit SHARC DSP´s to recreate the sounds of a number of classic guitar amplifiers.

"Dynamic Sector Modeling™(DSM ™)(using DSP) is much more than mere mimicry: rather than imitate, it recreates the tone of the original."



The official Zentera website with information about development etc.

http://www.zentera.net/main.html

So well I guess it is just (very simplified) two SHARC DSP´s, surrounded by a cabinet with poveramp, speakers, A-D-converters, midi in-out-thru, jack input, S/PDIF, and some LCD display, different buttons for controls etc.

I heard the amp, and it sounded real good and versatile. It was real heavy, but quite compact and would definely make a good amp for gigs as well as for the studio.

The amp is software upgradeable (through midi), the recreation of the many different amps is done by the SHARCS. It´s a fully digital amp, and not a hybrid amp like the fender Cybertwin, that uses actual transistors and/or tubes together with some sort of DSP to obtain the sound. The point is quite clear

Every owner of a Creamware card, actually has the fundamentals for a really serious peace of Guitaramp simulation. Except the cabinet, Power amp, speakers, buttons etc. we have a Zentera Amp right there in our cards...Well offcourse something´s missing: the software - Zentera as a plugin for SFP.

The amp sells for more than $3499 (smaller models with fewer possibilities from $1999). If i could have an a Zentera Plugin for my pulsar i would be willing to pay about 400-500$ for it.

That would be a really great third-party collaboration: Hugghes&Kettner and Creamware (Creamware not only for the synthentuatists -but also for the guitarnerds!!)

I mailed H&K to notice them about these issues, and I got an answer - that they have made a vst guitar-amp-simulation Warp-VST:

http://www.steinberg.net/products/ae/pl ... d=01369308

But that´s only three different amps, not quite the power of a real Zentera. (collaboration with Steinberg shouldn´t rule out collaboration with Creamware??)

We use DSP´s, and the Zentera use DSP´s to achieve its recreation of sounds, we would want all the functionality of Zentera as a SFP plugin. And they´re talking about a whopping use of 2 Sharc DSP´s . But offcourse synths are complex.

I´m not a programmer or anything, but if the Zenterea uses DSP to run the simulations there must be some code that can be directly used/transformed for SFP (by Creamware or others) Offcourse there´s a lot of business issues here, but at least it seems tecnically adequate to make the transform.

I guess someone should talk with the H&K guy mentioned here:

"The zenTera’s computer platform featuring two 32-bit Sharc DSPs was conceived by Alexander Peter at Hughes & Kettner. He designed the hardware and operating software of the zenTera and laid the groundwork for the control features"

What are your thoughts about all this lot?
What would be the next step, to get Cramware and Hughes&kettner together, and realising the enourmous potential (commercially and sonically) of a collaboration ?






<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Böltz on 2002-05-17 11:11 ]</font>

I'm a programmer, but of course I have a long way to understand DSP programming, but regarding the programming process for CW I think it's time to know what's going on with the third party development policies of CW, as you mentioned there are exciting posibilites out there for new devices, and it seems that CW is not moving at all.

I'm confused about the Scope/DP wich uses "atoms" for you to create new devices, I'd like to know if that it's more a drawback than a help for development (there's no information to evaluate that platform as I'd like to), it can be great to develop synths, but can it be harder or impossible to create an amp simulator (???).

I think CW is SO CLOSE to create the best platform ever, very close. I just want to know if they are looking forward it.

snoopy

hi snoopy,

they've already created the best platform ever, but even that can be improved

The "atoms" are just something like macros in traditional assembler. Creamware adds the most common routines for audio-math like presets in a device.
That's a great help to start from.
Don't waste time wondering if they supply "the best version".
They do, but that doesn't exclude an even better way.
Another strategy, another algorithmic approach, whatever comes to your mind might yield a better acoustic result.
It's not important that the result of the calculation is mathematically or physical correct, but that it sounds good.

There's not difference if the processing is applied to the emulation of an oscillator or an amp. Actually a highly feedbacked amp becomes an osc

Imho it's a very demanding platform, as the
basics are already very, very good.

cheers, Tom

There is a guitar amp simulator for the Creamware cards. I got it, it's made by http://www.celmo.com .He's a french guy who also makes a leslie speaker simulator, a Hammond organ emulator and loads of effects and synths. He even has a free guitar amp simulator if you don't want to spend money. Go there now and check it out.

why not to post this notice to creamware guys with some collaboration with H&K suggestion??
maybe they already know it, but just to be sure...

i think that only working with atoms is a drawback for developers. the way i see it you are only able to develop what cw let you develop. and also i belive it wont let you optimize your devices as much as if you did all the source code yourself. but im also under the impression that wrighting source code for sharcs are very hard.

to wright algorythems/plugs like waves, bombfactory, focusright, line6 and sony(eq) you need more than some basic atoms, no matter how well the atoms are made

i belive timeworks wrote their plugs from the ground up, and to me they are still the best plugs for this platform(havent tried everything though)three years after their release.

i might be totally wrong in this post, if so im sorry, and feel free to tell me so.

i'm pretty sure if you are informed and knowledgable enough, that you can code your own atoms.

dspdevices has done so, along with some other folks i don't recall offhand.

Igge, I already have downloaded Celmos amp, but not actually tried to put my Guild Nightbird, my Valley Art or Chandler Strat through it (I will try some time soon). It seems that Celmos´s devices are great, but I´m mainly a guitarist, and you know us: we´re used to MesaBoogie, good Fender amps (maybe even the supposedly great Cybertwin), old Marshalls etc., and i´m not even a total tube nerd (mesa + digitech).

If an ampsimulator for VST, SFP or whatever should satisfy all us silly gearfixated guitarists, it would have to compare favourable with the amps it tries to simulate (and there the Zentera and the Cybertwin come pretty far) I would really like to buy either of these amps for gigging, recording etc., but would be quite satisfied with a SFP-Zentera for 1/6 of the price of a real Zentera.

My point is that Hughes&Kettner have put loads of manhours (big established firm) in developing zentera (including the DSP-code), so logically their product is of a very high standard. I guess Celmo´s devices are as well, but offcourse Zentera is somewhat different. Maybe Celmo could be the link between Creamware and Hughes&Kettner - between SFP and the real guitaramp world??

To Thermos. I totally agree with you, I guess stock Scope atoms is not going to build a clone of Zentera (or of other really, really, really high quality equipment) - something more complicated must be going on.

And yes, maybe I should try to contact Creamware (Paul where are You?). With their endeavour into the "real"- synth market and everything, they should maybe take a bold further step: get all guitarnerds to buy some "Luna-Zentera-cards" with bundled Zentera plugin (a bit like Elektra, but for guitarists )

That was a long one. Have fun everybody, and remember to drink some beer from time to time!

On 2002-05-20 15:08, Böltz wrote:
To Thermos. I totally agree with you, I guess stock Scope atoms is not going to build a clone of Zentera (or of other really, really, really high quality equipment) - something more complicated must be going on.

you're kidding. The EarlyFirst Reverbs are done just by those atoms - nothing else.
The Modular 2 may have an ugly interface but from quality of sound output it beats most anything in the market. Again only atoms.
There's no reason at all why a more complicated calculation should yield a better sounding result.
The trick is to choose the right math model of the process you try to emulate.

cheers, Tom

Aah, yes, and to code that bit when the valves are starting to wear and you get that special sound......

i dont have any of the commercial releses from earlyfirst, iv tried the free one and i agree it sound great, so i can only assume the rest sounds better. but my point was not that you could not make great devices with the atoms cw supplie you with.

my point was that there is things you cant do just using a limited amount of premade bulding blocks.i guess theres a reason why dspdev and zarg custom make some atoms for their plugs, and their devices also sounds great.

and i doubt devices made of stock atoms are nearly as cpu efficient as they could be if they were made/programed with pure source code.

but theres also a good thing with the modular approach, people with great music/sound skills are able to create devices without having a background as a dsp programmer.

but if we want something like line6 ampfarm, a diskstreaming sampler or audio to midi detector on our beloved platform, im positive cws atoms arent going to cut it.

so for more state of the art plugins cw needs to make a dv kit more aimed at dsp programmers (and not try to make money of people who contribuate to the growth of their platform).

my two cents
thermos

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: thermos on 2002-05-20 20:20 ]</font>

On 2002-05-20 20:14, wayne wrote:
Aah, yes, and to code that bit when the valves are starting to wear and you get that special sound......

... this was left as an exercise for the reader