XITE-1 Laptop Recommendations?

[mike.kennedy]

Hi Folks,

My circa 10 years old Dell M6800 just blew a gasket, therefore I'm looking for a suitable replacement for running a XITE-1 audio system. This could be a laptop or small form-factor PC as I have both the Sonic Core Expresscard and PCIe interfaces.

Does anyone in the Planet Z community have recommendations or experiences that could help point me in the right direction?

I don't think the Dell was ever a particularly satisfactory solution due to alleged limitations in their Expresscard implementation. Any information that would help me to find a comparable and maybe an improved solution, would be most gratefully received!

Mike

[Xite Knight v2.0]

Maybe my experience could be helpful.
As you probably know, Expresscard was phased out in most workstations around 10 years ago.
I found out the hard way that it's not necessarily a good idea to buy one of the very latest expresscard based Lenovos for a Scope system.
In my future expresscard based setup, I was looking for the flexibility to load several instances of the Mattomat sequencer, so I went for a P50, i.e. (one of) the latest and most powerful expresscard Lenovo workstations I could find (released in 2015)
However, after a lot of troubleshooting, I never managed to load more than one instance of Mattomat on the P50 - a second instance would immediately trigger the Windows blue screen/exeption/restart problem.
Apparently, Mattomat is particularly "stressful" for such an expresscard setup, and therefore I see it as a useful indicator of a laptop's expresscard capability and suitability for Scope.
I have much better experience with my current Lenovo W520 which can handle 7-8 Mattomats (like my Scope desktop PC).
It's my theory that Scope likes the slightly older expresscard chipsets better - e.g. the ones fitted in the Lenovo W5xx workstations.
As a bonus info, the W510 can be found with a (super rare) FHD touchscreen option - in case you're into touchscreens.
I actually managed to transplant such a W510 touchscreen onto my "Frankenstein" W520

[Bud Weiser]

Lenovo Thinkpad W 540 /541 workstation laptops (Intel core i7 mobile quad 2.5GHz and 2.8GHz, 4th Gen Haswell) work w/ Win10 Pro 22H and Scope/XITE-1 v7 64Bit here.

The Scope v7 64bit issues will be present still until we´ll see the a long time ago anounced new Win11 drivers as also some fixes and improvements.
So, LiquidEdge XITE tips viewtopic.php?t=34658 will be welcome.

When I use Scope v7 on the W540 and w/ PCIexpresscard 34,- I use Scope standalone and not as the ASIO audio interface for the time being.

Up to now I didn´t try Win11 Pro 21H which was the latest Win11 version installing on the W541.
I recognized Win11 Pro 22H and higher won´t install on both the W540 and w541 machines.
No biggie for Scope alone, but when you have in mind using a DAW app urgently needing Win11 22H and ASIO on your upcoming laptop in future, there´s no other way as finding another more up to date laptop.
I guess that will be almost impossible to find, but I can imagine there were later production run Lenovo laptops still offering a PCIexpresscard34 slot and possibly coming w/ TPM 2.0 module chip and other hardware allowing Win1122H+ installs.
So, take that as a warning ´cause I found out Cubase AI, which often comes w/ hardware purchases, wants Win10 22H or Win11 22H or higher.
Win10 will officially disappear in about 1 year, so I guess many DAW apps except Cockos Reaper and like Cubase/Nuendo will go Win11 22H+ quickly,- last but not least they all more or less move in the direction of "subscription" and cloud usage (see latest Presonus Studio One announcement) which requires all the latest Windows security crap.

I bought the W540 and 541 laptops because their UEFI/BIOS allows the for ScopeXITE critical adjustments in regards of all the energy savers, turbo and s##t !
This is not always the case w/ most laptops.
Their UEFI/BIOS might be crippled too much.

Above the Lenovo P50 is mentioned.
That might be a good choice too.
I don´t use Mattomat though ...
Does it install Win 11 22 or 23 H ?

good luck,-



Bud

[Xite Knight v2.0]

Above the Lenovo P50 is mentioned
Does it install Win 11 22 or 23 H ?

Bud

Under Windows update it says 'This PC doesn't currently meet the minimum system requirements to run Windows 11', so I guess no.

[mike.kennedy]

Thank you both for your comments. I don't have Mattomat but I can see that it would be a valid and effective test of system resources.

My investigations so far had led to the Lenovo Thinkpad P71 as being the latest and greatest workstation laptop with a Expresscard slot. I.e. before the industry dumped Expresscard for Thunderbolt. Your comments would indicate that the Expresscard implementation may have become less than compatible with Xite1 in that later generation of Thinkpads. Which is slightly disappointing, although far from surprising!

Also, after much investigation, I established that the Dell M6800 suffers from intermittent excess latency caused by the ACPI driver, resulting in audio glitches at all but the maximum ULLI settings, I would be interested to know whether other laptops have similar problems, and whether this rules out laptops in general for use with Xite1? Or is it just Dell? This ACPI driver intermittent latency was happening in both Windows 7 and 10, according to LatencyMon.

In terms of applications, I am using a number of different DAWs depending on the project, including Ableton Live, Harrison Mixbus., Samplitude and Cakewalk - with Scope 7 ASIO - and of course, mixers, effects and synths from SonicCore. I don't think that I am overtaxing the system in any significant way (e.g. I do not use more than 16 audio tracks generally, but have not got beyond poor Expresscard throughput and intermittent latency issues. However, I will definitely have a look at the Lenovo W5xx systems based on your favourable reports.

But I'm still wondering if there is any mileage in the PCIe option, i.e. with a small form-factor micro or mini PC, as these may be more likely to be in current production.

Anyway, plenty of food for thought, thanks again!

Mike

[valis]

Look for Jimmy's posts on Xeon 1u machines he built that use the built in iGP (Intel GPU) on the Xeon for video output, and have room for the PCIe card for Xite. This may be a better option than a laptop with all the adapters.

[Bud Weiser]

Look for Jimmy's posts on Xeon 1u machines he built that use the built in iGP (Intel GPU) on the Xeon for video output, and have room for the PCIe card for Xite. This may be a better option than a laptop with all the adapters.

Jimmy´s 1HU builds were for live gigging and very noisy,- in his own words loud like a jet,- because of the "behind front panel" array of very small fans in use for cooling.

I really wanted such thing,- but not in my home studio.



Bud

[mike.kennedy]

Thanks for your suggestion, Valis.

Because space is at a premium in my cramped studio, I did consider a 1u system flat on the desk with the monitor & keyboard, etc. sitting on top. I had in mind the kind of "pizza box" format pc. However, I decided that ultimately, this wouldn't be a very practical solution for me and potentially a safety hazard.. Worthwhile considering though!

Mike

[mike.kennedy]

Yes, I remember the noise those things made in the comms rooms at work!

[valis]

You can build a 4u case that is cooled exactly like a desktop case. Its just food for thought as an alternative to laptops for Xite.

[sunmachine]

A small and silent option would be a (second-hand) Intel Mac Mini running Windows via Bootcamp. I don't think that it's possible to run Windows on the current models anymore, since they don't have an Intel CPU.
You could put in a rack using the Sonnet Rackmac Mini (so you can turn it on from the front) or even mount it behind the monitor (switching on could be a little more sporty, though). Or just place it on the desk. You'd need the Sonnet Thunderbolt ExpressCard Adapter to connect the computer to the Xite-1.
See here for more details including some pictures: https://www.scopeusers.com/ScopeRise/is ... c_mast.htm

The Sabrent Mac mini VESA Mount could be used to mount it behind the monitor or under the desk. Here's a short example video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9aIScEA_bs

[Bud Weiser]

You can build a 4u case that is cooled exactly like a desktop case. Its just food for thought as an alternative to laptops for Xite.

I run 3 4U rackmounts.
Unfortunately these are heavy beasts needing a shockmount case for transport,- making everything even heavier.
When I was younger, weight was no problem, but now it is.

My ancient Lenovo W model laptops offer Thunderbolt 2 (or 3 ???) already.
That´s PCIe level, like Expresscard34 is too.
But I´ve found the Sonnet expresscard to thunderbolt adapter way too expensive.

I´ve found out, when using SCOPE standalone, it doesn´t need many cores and lots of CPU cycles.
So, the power of a 4th gen mobile quad i7 2.5 or 2.8 GHz processor is already overkill for SCOPE alone.

Unfortunately, the XITE expresscard accidently slips out of slot way easier than the self locking Delock USB3 expresscard I use for the RME Babyface.
But there are working workarounds still.

Conclusion:
When we need today´s fast laptops doing all the work, we´ll need at least a Thunderbolt connection for XITE-1.
Would´nt it be nice we had the HDMI connector for Xite on one end of the cable and a Thunderbolt connector on the other,- maybe w/ a tiny "line lump" case in between, housing electronics translating the data stream ?



Bud

[valis]

Scope 8 first please, but yes I do understand. In the meantime, same as it always was (Magma now these):

https://www.newegg.com/startech-com-mod ... 6815158445

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Thu ... 075RJHLB4/

https://www.amazon.com/Sonnet-Express-T ... 01N21UTFN/

[Xite Knight v2.0]

Totally outside my price range, but some rugged laptops come with both Win11 and Expresscard options, but I have no clue whether Scope (8) would run at all on one of these https://ruggedbooks.com/products/z14i-f ... ows-11-pro

[mike.kennedy]

Thanks again for comments and suggestions. Plenty of food for thought there.

I have a space 45x45cm on my desk where I can put either a laptop or screen + keyboard + compact pc. I am not up for building rack units or cabinets as I have nowhere to put them! But thanks for the info about them, which may be very useful to others reading this discussion.

I do use a fair amount of Windows audio apps in addition to scope. So the extra processing power of the i7, 4 gen or later is quite useful for me.

I've read elsewhere on Planet Z that PC manufacturers do not always provide a complete Thundebolt implementation, which means that the bandwidth for near real-time audio data is compromised. Short of trial and error, is it possible to identify which Thunderbolt ports are compatible with Xite-1? Seems that Intel Macs are ok in this respect, anyone have positive (or negative) experience with Thunderbolt on native Windows pcs?

Also, does anyone on Z have practical and positive experience of using the Sonnet converter boxes or similar?

It seems that the replacement options (for my requirements) are boiling down to:
1. Legacy laptop with compatible Expresscard chipset and implementation
2. Current laptop with compatible Thunderbolt implementation and Expresscard or PCIe converter box
3. Legacy Intel Mac with virtual Windows, Thunderbolt plus Expresscard or PCIe converter box
4. Small PC with compatible PCIe slot (or Thunderbolt plus Expresscard converter box)

I like the idea of the HDMI <> Thunderbolt cable! Soon come...

Thanks all...

Mike

[astroman]

A small correction regarding point 3:
an Intel Mac Mini (as suggested) does NOT run a virtual Windows. It‘s a regular Win install via BootCamp, with native drivers provided by Apple.

[sunmachine]

I wonder if the Xite PCIe card can be (easily) turned into a low profile card so that it fits into Mini PCs.

Edit: Just took a look. As it is only attached with two screws to the slot bracket, you probably only need a suitable replacement bracket. But where to get one?

[Bud Weiser]

I wonder if the Xite PCIe card can be (easily) turned into a low profile card so that it fits into Mini PCs.

Edit: Just took a look. As it is only attached with two screws to the slot bracket, you probably only need a suitable replacement bracket. But where to get one?

brackets exist ...
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=low+profile+s ... fab&ia=web
You have to find the one w/ the hole for, depending on PCIe card, DVI or HDMI at the right place.

B.t.w.,- when I got my XITE-1, there were 2 brackets in the box,- the one already mounted to the card,- and LP for an exchange.
It´s the "old" card w/ lockable DVI connector.

It might have changed when the HDMI version was released.



Bud

[sunmachine]

Yeah, but not only the hole for the connector must fit, but also the two angle brackets for the screws.
Interesting that you got a low profile version as well. Thanks for the info!
I'm gonna ask Sonic Core if they have one for the HDMI card or if they know where to get one.

[valis]

Do post back in the event that I ever need one as well. HDMI here...