Dante I/O device

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Bud Weiser
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Dante I/O device

Post by Bud Weiser »

I´d wish we could get Dante I/O Scope device modules driving XTDM port to use a D-Sub25-to-RJ45 adapter-cable into a Dante network.
AFAIK, XTDM is prepared for digital audio transfers,- possibly Sync and MIDI too (?).

Let´s discuss.

:)

Bud
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Re: Dante I/O device

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valis
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Re: Dante I/O device

Post by valis »

I doubt Dante connectivity is enough for Sonic|Core to take on creating their own converter box, but there are Dante devices out there that will convert to ADAT and AES etc. In fact I think there's even an RME that supports Dante now?
scary808
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Re: Dante I/O device

Post by scary808 »

I've been dreaming of similar I/O arrangements. Could an AVB connectivity scenario work with the Scope platform?

Is XITE the end of the line for Scope?
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valis
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Re: Dante I/O device

Post by valis »

The last question is up to Holger, but I don't see that as a foregone conclusion.

What I do see is that niche hardware addons are unlikely, but perhaps a 3rd party might have the technical chops to take on the task and work with the schematics from SonicCore? Boutique hardware (think: Innerclock systems and black lion etc) companies have often entered the 'gap' that is left by standards and smaller entities like S|C.
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MADI |Re: Dante I/O device

Post by Spielraum »

i wanted to get a CW MADI adapter, but the performance requirements scared me. i had a little conversation with Frank at the time.
DANTE could also assume too much performance.
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Bud Weiser
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Re: Dante I/O device

Post by Bud Weiser »

valis wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:09 pm I doubt Dante connectivity is enough for Sonic|Core to take on creating their own converter box, but there are Dante devices out there that will convert to ADAT and AES etc. In fact I think there's even an RME that supports Dante now?
Yes, I investigated in 3rd party hardware and recognized, the very affordable tools in a pricerange between 200 - 400.- $ / EUR are all 2 channels only,- and they´ll occupy the AES/EBU or 1 ADAT port.

Given the fact, STDM is able to transmit and receive digital audio and MIDI,- which was info I got from Holger when discussing the J.B. Solaris 1HU expander,- I thought about a multichannel solution,- maybe 8 channels of audio and MIDI.
I got the info according to the STDM port at the time when I hoped this Solaris -"blackbox" unit would become a full Solaris w/o displays and haptics except the volume knob and would connect to XITE via STDM port to be controllable by a VSTplugin and/or Scope GUI device alternately,- which never happened.

But,- I now imagine, the XITE STDM port isn´t a dead D-Sub25 port at all,- it just only needs the desired Scope DSP modules to become an active I/O port,- and as a 2nd step needed something to plug in.
I can dream,- but the best device would be an adapter device w/ male D-Sub25 and a female RJ45 to plug in a standard network cable of desired length.
It might need some additional controller electronics inside this adapter,- but such stuff is miniaturized in these days when I look at devices like this https://www.thomannmusic.com/dante_avio ... m?reload=1.

Now, when you imagine a similar tool w/o breakout cables,- just only the jacks.

RME and Dante is a different story.
These are 64ch I/O Dante devices w/ MADI in addition (another 64ch. I/O) and USB3 and unbal. analog stereo DA out/headphones out.
You can use w/Dante only and w/ BNC as wordclock,- or Dante and MADI (via BNC) together and w/o wordclock, or as USB3 audio interface or as standalone DAnte to MADI converter.
That´s too much functionality when you don´t run large PA systems or installations in theaters or whatever environments.
And it´s expensive.
The Focusrite Red interfaces are also very expensive because they are ... well,- complete interfaces,-
something the XITE-1 already IS.

I guess, for XITE-1, the main work would be the software transforming physical STDM into an active port,- and the small I/O device.

Install DANTE Virtual soundcard and/or DANTE Controller and rtpMIDI (or CopperLAN,- which unfortunately isn´t updated since years now) on your computer and it should work when being connected to a ethernet switch (or router).

:)

Bud
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Re: MADI |Re: Dante I/O device

Post by Bud Weiser »

Spielraum wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:35 am i wanted to get a CW MADI adapter, but the performance requirements scared me. i had a little conversation with Frank at the time.
DANTE could also assume too much performance.
You have too many channels in mind IMO.
I´m thinking about project studio and live performance.

I´d still use my A16U converter via Z-Link to connect my keys, use the ADAT ports for "slave" computers running SCOPE PCI and native software, use STM mixers and SCOPE fx, run 8 busses from STM mixer to Dante "destination" DSP module in Scope environment.
Dante "Source" DSP module would be for what comes back,- monitor mix from PA or control room in a studio, click, backing tracks etc.
Ice on the cake would be XITE-1 physical MIDI I/O mirrored and over LAN in addition.

Can you elaborate a bit more about these "performance requirements you´re aware of ?

:)

Bud
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Re: MADI |Re: Dante I/O device

Post by Spielraum »

Bud Weiser wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:50 am Can you elaborate a bit more about these "performance requirements you´re aware of ?
the usual suffering, "dsp overflow", "sate connections" for whatever reason,
in addition, no concrete error description to really start at the crucial point.
conclusion: sometimes scope is only stable as a "small" sound card, which makes me a bit sad
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valis
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Re: Dante I/O device

Post by valis »

Bud Weiser wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:37 am
valis wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:09 pm I doubt Dante connectivity is enough for Sonic|Core to take on creating their own converter box, but there are Dante devices out there that will convert to ADAT and AES etc. In fact I think there's even an RME that supports Dante now?
Yes, I investigated in 3rd party hardware and recognized, the very affordable tools in a pricerange between 200 - 400.- $ / EUR are all 2 channels only,- and they´ll occupy the AES/EBU or 1 ADAT port.
I was thinking more like this:

https://www.ferrofish.com/product/verto-32/
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... erter.html


I did remember correctly that RME has a Dante interface now, but it looks like it's ONLY Dante:
https://archiv.rme-audio.de/en/products ... _dante.php

Audinate is the company that promotes Dante, you can filter this page by the "I/O Interfaces" dropdown top right, but it's still going to give 40 something pages of results that are primary broadcast (Digital Video) oriented so it's a lot to wade through:
https://www.audinate.com/products/dante-enabled/
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Bud Weiser
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Re: MADI |Re: Dante I/O device

Post by Bud Weiser »

Spielraum wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:06 am
the usual suffering, "dsp overflow", "sate connections" for whatever reason,
in addition, no concrete error description to really start at the crucial point.
conclusion: sometimes scope is only stable as a "small" sound card, which makes me a bit sad
That´s why I use XITE-1 and PCI cards standalone and not as a soundcard at all anymore.
And this is also the reason why I´m interested in a network across several rooms,- audio and MIDI over IP.

:)

Bud
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Re: Dante I/O device

Post by Bud Weiser »

I´ve seen that too,- but my "idea" is using the XITE-1 XTDM port,- which for sure would be much cheaper.
It was designed to cascade XITE boxes, so it should do most of what´s needed except the I/O modules and hardware breakout are missing.

8 channels of digital audio and a MIDI bus over IP would be satifying for me.
That should not bring a XITE-1 on it´s knees when running a STM24/48X or 48/96X, a few FX in FX-rack and some SCOPE synths,- all standalone or w/ up to 4 ASIO-Out channels for some VSTis in addition which I´d run from a Lenovo workstation laptop which also runs SCOPE.
valis wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:15 am I did remember correctly that RME has a Dante interface now, but it looks like it's ONLY Dante:
https://archiv.rme-audio.de/en/products ... _dante.php
Wrong,- it´s what I said in former post,-

Connectivity & Features

• 256 Channels: 128 in / 128 out
• 64 Channels Dante / 64 Channels MADI
• 2 x Gigabit Ethernet (802.3 compliant)
• 1 x MADI I/O coaxial I/0
• Headphone Output
• Wordclock I/0
• USB 3
• Bus-powered
• TotalMix FX

When you decide for DANTE operation only, BNC wordclock I/Os are active.
When you decide for 128 channels I/O, Dante AND Madi,- no BNC wordclock ... and so on.
valis wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:15 am Audinate is the company that promotes Dante, you can filter this page by the "I/O Interfaces" dropdown top right, but it's still going to give 40 something pages of results that are primary broadcast (Digital Video) oriented so it's a lot to wade through:
https://www.audinate.com/products/dante-enabled/
Yeah, I gave up on this yesterday too.
It´s very obvious it was designed for broadcast and video until large studios recognized possibilities, PA & Light companies too.

Focusrite offers a 8-channel device https://www.thomannmusic.com/focusrite_red_8_line.htm ...
But we don´t need because it´s a fully fledged interface which XITE-1 owners already own.

It´s all about the XITE-1 connectivity,- but that´s possibly only me.

:)

Bud
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valis
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Re: Dante I/O device

Post by valis »

The focusrite is considerably higher than the Ferrofish, and also a full soundcard.

And yes, i understood XTDM carries additional data compared to ADAT <> Ethernet, just giving options. I got the ferrofish information from one of their emails in the last 6 months, wasn't sure if you were aware of its existence. It is NOT a soundcard, simply a conversion device that can slave to ADAT or wordlock.
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Re: Dante I/O device

Post by Bud Weiser »

valis wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:40 am The focusrite is considerably higher than the Ferrofish, and also a full soundcard.
yep !
valis wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:40 am I got the ferrofish information from one of their emails in the last 6 months, wasn't sure if you were aware of its existence. It is NOT a soundcard, simply a conversion device that can slave to ADAT or wordlock.
Found it yesterday when doin´ the search in Audinate Dante enabled products.
At a 1st glance, it was attractive,- but there´s the need of 4 (4x8 channels of) ADAT I/Os for 32 channels, which XITE-1 doesn´t offer.
So, for getting half channel count only and occupying XITE´s ADAT ports, I don´t want to make such investment.

I believe, when XTDM expansion port became active, we don´t even need a true format conversion at all.
The audio stream should be 1s and 0s down the line and when synchronization and signal-level conversion is right, it should work when running into a tiny RJ45 connector box or adapter plug,- depending on where the additional tiny electronics fit best.
Dante is all in all AES67, a protocol being provided thru Dante Virtual Soundcard and Dante Controller.
But in Scope environment, it needs a Dante-Source and Dante-Destination module where users are able to select desired track count ike we can do in Z-Link, ADAT and ASIO I/O modules,- up to 8, possibly even more (up to 16 ?) tracks when loading more of these Source/Destination modules.

I´m pretty sure almost every Dante compatible product out there is more complex than what we´d need,- except the Dante AVIO AES3 IO Adapter 2x2 i linked in former post.
But it´s 2 channels I/O only and we have 1 AES3 I/O in XITE-1 only,- which as an input is currently necessary for sync from my masterclock when running XITE-1 as a slave,-last but not least because BNC wordclock sync doesn´t work correctly w/ XITE-1 and Scope v7 (x64).

:)

Bud
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XTDM Specs |Re: Dante I/O device

Post by Spielraum »

has holger released the XTDM protocol somewhere so that DIY fans/solder artists can try it?
i still wish for a CV extension...

if the XTDM specifications remain secret, nobody will be curious...
...and maybe the interface is not connected at all?
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Re: XTDM Specs |Re: Dante I/O device

Post by Bud Weiser »

Spielraum wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:16 am has holger released the XTDM protocol somewhere so that DIY fans/solder artists can try it?
No.
Spielraum wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:16 am if the XTDM specifications remain secret, nobody will be curious...
...and maybe the interface is not connected at all?
maybe ...

:)

Bud

Edit:

I wonder whether Creamware STDM and S|C XTDM have features in common or not,- possibly might be the same (identical ?).
Cascade PCI cards or cascade XITEes,- where´s the difference?

I investigated for the term "STDM" and have found this,-
https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/differenc ... tical-tdm/

I´d really like to see a pinout diagram of the STDM for PCI and XTDM for XITE w/ some explanation about which data is transmitted and received.
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Re: XTDM Specs |Re: Dante I/O device

Post by Spielraum »

Bud Weiser wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:03 am I investigated for the term "STDM" and have found this,-
https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/differenc ... tical-tdm/
i can't find any reference to Scope, Pulsar or Sonic Core,
i'm cautious as to whether S|C hardware interfaces are really being discussed
...anyway thanks for the research :wink:
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Re: Dante I/O device

Post by pranza »

have you tried marrying scope to Dante with Dante via? https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-via
computer has its own eth port(s) anyway

i'm using scope in xtc mode under DAW with Dante virtual soundcard driver. works fine!
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Re: Dante I/O device

Post by Bud Weiser »

pranza wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:00 pm i'm using scope in xtc mode under DAW with Dante virtual soundcard driver. works fine!
What´s your roundtip latency with:

MIDI In (play a note and a VI device like Scope synth or any plugin)
Dante Virtual Soundcard
ASIO driver (SCOPE ASIO or what ?)
Audio output to speakers.

I´ve read, Dante VSC has latency up to 4ms and ASIO driver latency comes in addition.
That´s not really LOW latency IMO,- if true.

:)

Bud
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Re: Dante I/O device

Post by LunaMan »

scary808 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:33 pm I've been dreaming of similar I/O arrangements. Could an AVB connectivity scenario work with the Scope platform?

Is XITE the end of the line for Scope?
Sharc DSP is EOL for DAW workstations. M1 took care of that.
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