Do I really need a new mixer?

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yayajohn
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Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by yayajohn »

I have a 22yr old mixer 24 track 8 bus, I send the 8 record bus's to an ADAT converter then to the Xite (or previously Scope PCI)
Like all living things (and eletronics) it will die one day never to return.

In the future what i'm thinking is: 1/4" out from keyboard instruments to 1/4" input on the AD converter with it's own pre-amps?

Sure would save a lot of space for me and some extra noise. (and $$$)

Any reasons why I shouldn't do this?

Shopping for a new mixer is hurting my brain. Not sure what happened to the 8 bus standard over the years but they seem hard to come by unless you want to spend a lot of money. Most of what I use a mixer for is just for convenience leaving most of it's features unused.
QSC Touchmix-30 would fit the bill perfectly but again, not looking for anything in the thousands of dollars unless that's my only option.

Any hints would be appreciated.
Last edited by yayajohn on Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Xite Knight v2.0
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by Xite Knight v2.0 »

I think new mixers are neither built to last nor (easily) servicable, so I would not go that way. It seems like mixers are a thing of the past.
My setup is quite old school, and I actually use the 8 busses on my Studer 963, similar to how you do it, hooking them up to my Xite-1 via converters/adat.
The good thing about my mixer from the early 90's is that it is built to last and very service friendly with all op amps etc. placed in sockets for easy replacement.
The bad thing... Well my feeling is that all those good old through hole DIP IC's (5532, 5534 etc.) in there will soon not be available anymore, because all the new mixers are based on miniaturized SMD components.
So to prepare for this risk of obsolence, I just ordered almost a thousand op amps from Mouser which should keep my Studer happy for the next 30 years.
I guess my point is that having an oldschool mixer is neither really needed nor wanted in the market anymore, and if and oldschool head like me wants to defy trend and keep an analog mixer anyway (including the whole infrastructure around it), it's basically an 'all or nothing' kind of commitment.
And of course, on Planetz the consensus is: 'Why bother when you can do everything inside Scope anyway?' :)
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valis
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by valis »

Lunchbox format might work, it's more an assortment of channel modules than a single board of one type, so you can mix & match flavors and find what you like with a particular source.

SSL's small format mixers look very solid as well, but are priced similarly to the once popular 'summing mixers' which people were pairing with DAWs 8-12 years ago (are those still popular?)...

I was eyeballing Toft & Oram (China's competitor to Toft) or a refurb'd soundtracs topaz, but ran into a deal on a Yamah 32+8 (which imho fits Xite Knight's description quite well, it isn't amazingly built but has decent headroom and sounds good for now). 1 scratchy pot, but otherwise solid and was sitting back of stage in a middle school for its entire life before my stewardship. The +8 is 4 stereo line only, and the 8 busses are also tied to a matrix like a FoH board, so it's fairly flexible.

In the past I was using my mixers as glorified routing interfaces, but I'm actually quite happy with the state of affairs in here now.
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dante
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by dante »

Summing boxes are still a thang - I’m reading bout them often enough without searching. Expensive - but space and spare part efficient for those than just want to add an Analog vibe to their mixes. Sweetwater have a bunch.

I’d be gravitating that way myself if not for having earmarked UA’s Neve and API summing down the track….
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astroman
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by astroman »

Lunchbox is similiar to the former German broadcast module system.
While these devices do suffer from aging (99% certain you‘ll have to recap), their sound quality is exceptional.
When I compare the DI of my Audient ID22 and it‘s highly regarded monitor section to a V357 broadcast module (which can drive headphones properly), the oldie wins... and not by a subtle matter of taste. The difference is bizzarre :o
(but of course the interface does ad/da conversion, while the module stays in the analog domain front to back)

Tbh I have no idea how that simple circuit of a few transistors does it‘s magic of resolution and definition, but it gives enough motivation to struggle through reworking the circuits.
The V357 is a rather unusual part, converting 4 high impedance sources into 2 balanced output channels, but the impendance conversion part can be removed to handle line level (the modules themselves are modular).
(from my 5 V357 modules I could build 10 full mixer channels)
Another nice part for line input is the BFE 1170 module .
Broadcast modules for mic input, EQ and compression are high price today, but such „aux“ devices may be found for affordable rates.

Back in the days those low impedance output modules were summed by trannies, also in module housing.
Anyway... you need some chance to score such gear for reasonable prices and replacing caps is not that easy because few (any at all ?) are made with axial connectors today.
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garyb
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by garyb »

xlr outs on a synth are usually +4 balanced LINE level, not mic level...
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by dawman »

Can you show a diagram of your current signal flow/set up?

I haven’t used a mixer ever since the XITE-1 was released. Z-Link/A16 w/ADAT really made life easy for me.

I can use a combination of mixers in the project window to achieve most Bussing/AUX needs.

Cheerz
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yayajohn
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by yayajohn »

Thanks Xite Knight,valis,dante,astroman some good suggestions and info there. I will check into all of that.

@gary: I'm actually using the 1/4" jacks (original post will be edited) . The bus outputs from the mixer to the DAC are XLR though so I'm not sure if that is an issue. It seems to have worked over the years although I don't really need the preamp on the DAC in this case.

@dawman: not really set up to draw right now :( , but basically: keyboard - mixer - DAC - Xite.
So you are going directly into the A16 from your keyboards?
I think I will try that with my keyboards and synths and then maybe get a smaller mixer for the rest of the stuff I have plugged in.

Ok so that clears things up a bit
Thanks for the help guys!

Dan
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Bud Weiser
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by Bud Weiser »

I like the S|C A16U w/ XITE-1 solution too WHEN ext. hardware keyboard´s and module´s output levels match the A16U´s balanced inputs.
Kurzweil w/ it´s +4dB balanced outputs is fine w/ XITE-1 analog in and/or A16U, other synths/modules not so much.
So, I like to have a pre-mixer being connected to XITE-1 analog ins and use the A16U for the hot balanced line +4dB signals.
A multi channel preamp connected between instruments/modules and A16U would be great too !

The Audient ASP-880 catched my eye because it´s usable also w/ ADAT, has 8 Burr-Brown converters, 2 DIs on demand and FX inserts via D-Sub.
https://www.thomann.de/gb/audient_asp_8 ... UiOiJlbiJ9

IMO, there´s no need using XITE-1 together w/ an analog summing box.

:)

Bud
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by jksuperstar »

Don't forget, the A16 has level switches for groups of channels to be +4 or -10 dbu (single ended 1/4" TS). I've had no problems using either mode with different gear. Then I usually go straight into a 24channel mixer in scope with inserts for SSL channels, ULA type prea.ps, or just using the mixers built in abilities for compression and EQ.
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valis
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by valis »

Good tip jksuperstar... If you have a variety of input & output levels on your gear (balanced +4 dBu / unbalanced/lined -10 dBV) then utilizing AD/DA that can be switched in banks, or multiple AD/DA units so you can switch them separately and connect all gear properly. Otherwise I'd be looking at some rackmount DI boxes....
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yayajohn
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by yayajohn »

Some great info there, thanks. :)
I'm currently using an A16U to/from a patchbay for external effects. I have 1/2 the I/O's set to +4 and the other half set to -10 based on the type of effect it is hooked up to.
From the 24 track mixer I run the 8 bus into a Presonus Digimax FS, then ADAT to Xite. Mostly 4 stereo tracks but I can switch them to different buses depending on what I'm using and I don't have to re-patch anything. Which is why the mixer has been handy over the years. However my CP300 and Sequential Rev2 are the 2 that I use the most on 2 different busses and I rarely switch them around so I'm thinking at least I can send those 2 directly into the Presonus.
This is definitely going to open up a big can of worms with my setup and probably a complete rewire.....uuhhg
I have 2 Presonus Digimax FS, an A16 Ultra and an A16 Ultra XLR so i should be able to make that work with maybe a small mixer and maybe figure out which equipment I will need a preamp or mixer.
Thanks to everyone's input, I have a lot to mull over and will likely re-read this thread many times over before I do anything.

Dan
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garyb
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by garyb »

xlr line is EXACTLY the same as 1/4" trs line.
just be sure that the xlrs pin outs are matched to the trs pins, ie pin2 to tip or pin3 to tip depending on whether your mixer is wired pin 2 or pin 3 hot.
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dante
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by dante »

Here’s an interesting unit. Combination artist mixer and summing mixer. ADAT equipped so perfect companion for the XITE-1 yielding 8 channels @ 96khz. Great for analog summing digital material to add an analog touch. Been used with Apogee, UA , Focusrite etc interfaces. Looks like a modular setup where the mainframe will accept mix and match channel strips by the likes of Chandler, SSL, Maag etc.

https://www.cranborne-audio.com/500adat

If you really need 24 track - at budget end of town (USB rather than ADAT) Zoom stuff is good ( I have one of their USB3 interfaces):

https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/digital-mixe ... trak-l-20/

It will record standalone as well.
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valis
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by valis »

It takes 500-series modules, which is what I was referring to as the modern lunchbox format. API & others sell empty lunchbox cases with power, and then you fill them as you see fit. Most of my more successful drum&bass brethren either use one of these or the smaller SSL summing mixer now, largely due to the ease of 'smashing' things in the analog realm (VCC/Satson/NLS etc don't give the same color).

In fact many of those fellows have gone back to using the EMU or Akai samplers into their lunchbox and sampling the loops that way, then mixing in software for the degree of control you get there. Classic crunch on breaks, modern digital workflow. Heck, i even know someone using a lunchbox format alongside a modular rig and he records & mixes on an iPad pro (he hates computers).
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dante
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by dante »

Interesting stuff. I wasn't aware of '500-series modules' or 'smashing things w/- lunchbox' until now !
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valis
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by valis »

I think the popularity is similar to eurorack, in that you can get a frame and build piecemeal. A sort of 'pay as you go' market with a lot of boutique activity. The same people were using avalon compressors and Red Eq's to 'warm up' their DAW material when I was first learning Scope...so it's just an evolution of their workflow imho. Hence the context of the summing mixers above too.

Btw that adat frame is actually pretty nifty too, a nice integrated example of exactly that workflow.

I also think that similar results can be had with other tools, be they analog or digital. With workflows however it's ease of use and intuitiveness, which are subjective imho and as much a byproduct of historical context and/or learning paths are they are the personality of those creating or using the workflow.
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GordonGekko
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by GordonGekko »

astroman wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:55 am When I compare the DI of my Audient ID22 and it‘s highly regarded monitor section to a V357 broadcast module (which can drive headphones properly), the oldie wins... and not by a subtle matter of taste. The difference is bizzarre :o
Hey astroman, would 550€ be a good price for a racked pair of them? credit card tickling and all..
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astroman
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by astroman »

I never saw V357 modules racked... it‘s common to find V676 mic-preamps in that format for about $1k a pair.
(explanation V is the code for amplifier, next digit is manufacturer (2 Siemens, 3 TAB, 4 Neumann, 6 Telefunken, etc)
The mic preamps are (can be) complicated beasts - $500 for a flawless pair is a steal, but only from a trusted reseller.
They need special phantom power circuits - or you may kill the input transformer, in particular many V76 tube preamps died that way. There are no more replacements for that highly specific input transformer.
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GordonGekko
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Re: Do I really need a new mixer?

Post by GordonGekko »

Thanks for all this info. I'm looking at this:
https://reverb.com/item/40900756-tab-te ... acked-pair
the psu is not included, and I can't tell if the guy is trustworthy, but it sure looks tempting.
Cheers
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