PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Another seldom used MIDI function is "Note Off Velocity"

The current popular way to send note off is a note on with zero velocity.

The MIDI spec was intended for a separate note off message identical to the note on message. the format is -

note off (4 bits), channel (4 bits), note number (1 byte), velocity (1 byte)

As you can see this allows for expression when lifting OFF the keys.

How many keyboards or scope devices support this I wonder?


Eric.

i do not think the MVC actually outputs note off velocity. i am sure if sonic core wanted to they could add it very easily.

That particular well was poisoned by manufacturers using the 0 velocity for note-off. If some do and some don't, it doesn't make a lot of sense to support it. The main reason for using velocity 0 was that, in the early days of MIDI when MIDI stream processors were far slower than today, the roughly 1/3 savings by using running status was significant:

Note-on, note-value, velocity-value (3 bytes)
Note-off, note-value, velocity-value (3 bytes)
Note-on, note-value, velocity-value (3 bytes)
Note-off, note-value, velocity-value (3 bytes)
etc.

vs.

Note-On, note-value, velocity-value (3 bytes)
note-value, 0 (2 bytes)
note-value, velocity-value (2 bytes)
note-value,0 (2 bytes)
etc.

eric wrote:Another seldom used MIDI function is "Note Off Velocity"....[edit]. As you can see this allows for expression when lifting OFF the keys. How many keyboards or scope devices support this I wonder? Eric.

I know for a fact the Prophet T8 had Release velocity, as I had to work with it making the factory presets. And I have to say - it was really an odd thing to control, since a typical keyboardist focuses on the onset of notes. However, if you played the keyboard in a physical way as a conductor of an orchestra often does, lifting your hands off slowly and dramatically, the control did more or less correspond. But still, it didn't provide the kind of exactlng control I expected, and I found I really didn't do many presets with it.
john b.

What controllers today use it?

netguyjoel wrote:What controllers today use it?

Well I have to say, my Elka MK88 does! So do Cubase sequencers.

I agree witjh Johndunn about running status in the early days. The protocol only runs at 31.25 Kbaud regardless of processing power and running status does help a bit.

I would like to give it a try if I can find a plug that supports it. Velocity layering of samples for "note on" works well, so why not for note off. Maybe hard to control when playing staccato but not when playing and releasing chords slowly. There are real instruments that make a sound on release, like the harpsichord, not to mention cymbal choking. It's not only for live playing anyway, this stuff can be added and controlled in the sequencer.

I say if it's in the MIDI spec., then it should be supported if appropriate for the device. How do we know how useful or otherwise it might be if we can't try it? Can it be DSP hungry?


Eric.

afaik release velocity was by far exotic in the late 80s - early 90s.
Ensoniq keyboards and even the mass-market targeted Kawai K4 supported it.
To be honest, I somehow tried to use it once, but didn't find it particularily useful.
As already mentioned it may add realism to faked sample instruments, like fret or hammer noise, additional expression for brass sounds. But then the way of playing such instruments via keyboards is so far away from the original that it's likely to end as an artificial gimmick anyway.

cheers, Tom

astroman wrote:afaik release velocity was by far exotic in the late 80s - early 90s.
Ensoniq keyboards and even the mass-market targeted Kawai K4 supported it.
To be honest, I somehow tried to use it once, but didn't find it particularily useful.
As already mentioned it may add realism to faked sample instruments, like fret or hammer noise, additional expression for brass sounds. But then the way of playing such instruments via keyboards is so far away from the original that it's likely to end as an artificial gimmick anyway.

cheers, Tom

Yes Tom, I agree about that kind of use it's had in the past but now we have synths with all kinds of modulation sources, I'm sure it can be useful. My Matrix 1000 supports it and some of the patches are pretty good. It can be used to trigger another envelope for example. I'm sure the modular experts could put it to good use.
My MK88 and Kurzweil PC88 controller support it but the D50 doesn't. I bet there's plenty more out there that do.
Still, when I get the SDK I'll try it out - unless someone is willing to implement it in one of their synths. It's just a mod to the MVC surely?

Eric.

The current Scope MVC does not provide output for note-off velocity. I don't know what the plans are for making updated modules, but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask!
-john b.

eric wrote:...but now we have synths with all kinds of modulation sources, I'm sure it can be useful. My Matrix 1000 supports it and some of the patches are pretty good.

well, sometimes you don't see the forest for the trees...
you already have a keyboard that sends release velocity - fine, insert a midi processor (software or hardware, whatever you prefer) and map the value to some other controller your synth supports.
And... pleeeeaase... don't tell me you want it inside SFP
that is just plain bullsh*t
everyone knows that Scope can be a little bitchy from time to time with the windoze midi buffers
so a filter applies anyway, for the cautious user - or wouldn't hurt either ...
I remember a thing called Bome's Midi Translater, that could do a bag of tricks in that domain

cheers, Tom

eric wrote:Yes Tom, I agree about that kind of use it's had in the past but now we have synths with all kinds of modulation sources, I'm sure it can be useful. My Matrix 1000 supports it and some of the patches are pretty good. It can be used to trigger another envelope for example. I'm sure the modular experts could put it to good use.

You can do some cool note off things with the MVC gate output signal, although it won't be using note off velocity. You can see the potential to some small extent already in Xtreme Cut Pro where you can set the midi trigger mode to note off for triggering the sequencer or either of the LFOs on note off. Admittedly, I could have taken it much further, but there's nothing stopping you building some modular patches which use the note off gate for all sorts of things. There's even conditional logic modules from sdk been released by a 3rd party for using in the modular, so there's a lot of potential for taking the note off gate value & transforming it into a whole variety of other useful values for whatever task you want.

~Mark

As well as what I mentioned above, you can also add variable delay to the gate signal on the circuit path that you create for note off gate, so as you can see, there's a lot of expressive things that could be done with what we already have.

~Mark

John and Mark, thanks for the encouragement. I don't have the SDK yet so I'm guessing a lot here. I have heard that the windows MIDI buffers are a little unreliable but how else can you get the MIDI data into scope? Can you open a pipe to the MIDI data directly? What access to the API's is there from within scope or communication with external programs? Can modules written in pd or C++ be used in the SDK?

Mark, does the note-off trigger in the MVC derive from note-on velocity 0?

Tom, I guess I have a different approach to this. I would rather find a way around the Windows MIDI buffer problem and encompass more expression and control through MIDI. I suppose I'm new to this platform and maybe a bit too optomistic but I'm open to learning from those more experienced! MIDI remapping is easy but not all messages are compatible. Why can't it be done inside scope? (Serious question) Bullsh*t isn't a very technical argument.

Eric.

'........C++ be used in the SDK?'

yes we do vibes from vienna

eric wrote:Mark, does the note-off trigger in the MVC derive from note-on velocity 0?

If you hook up the midi monitor in Scope, you'll see that Scope does indeed recognize note off velocity, but I can't say what the internal workings of the MVC are, since it's internal circuit is not accessible with the protected MVC modules available in sdk.

Shroomz~> wrote:

eric wrote:Mark, does the note-off trigger in the MVC derive from note-on velocity 0?

If you hook up the midi monitor in Scope, you'll see that Scope does indeed recognize note off velocity, but I can't say what the internal workings of the MVC are, since it's internal circuit is not accessible with the protected MVC modules available in sdk.

Oh.

I thought the SDK gave access to that kind of stuff.
Do you think it's possible to write a new MVC with the current SDK? Or is that something only SC can do?
The Modular III MVC looks new. Are they all the same inside?
V5.0 SDK maybe?

OK, sorry for all the questions. I'd better wait until the SDK arrives and study it.

Thanks again,

Eric.

Sonic Core would have to code a new MVC. The Scope SDK currently doesn't allow C++ coding or the ability to create any customized modules.
-John B.

johnbowen wrote:Sonic Core would have to code a new MVC. The Scope SDK currently doesn't allow C++ coding or the ability to create any customized modules.
-John B.

Now we need the SDKDK!!!

I will plead with Ralf and co. for a new MVC and hope I can have some input. Not sure how well I will be received as a noob.
Bad timing with the launch of XCITE and Scop 5.

Eric.

There is indeed a way to build an MVC with note off response (including velocity). Haven't tested it fully, but it appears to work.

Shroomz~> wrote:There is indeed a way to build an MVC with note off response (including velocity). Haven't tested it fully, but it appears to work.

Way to go!

Is it a secret?

Eric.