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More Mixers...
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:13 pm
by spacef
Just some pictures and comments.
FP8 VP (6M+8S Fat Mixer)
====================
- 7 dsp (when full on), 10 dsp advised minimum, 1 scope board or more recommended
- Valve Mixer Channels : 6 Mono and 8 Stereo "Fat" inputs (on 22 channels)
- static dsp load/ on same dsp (advanced mixer/phase architecture, loads compact on dsp (see pic below)
- Aux : 3 , stereo, crossfadable (1-to-2-to-3)
- Modulable: yes, external modulators, internal mod source/gain.
- "VP": means valves and pre-ins.
It takes approximately the same DSP as the FB5 (full on).
The sound is worth it. The Fat also exists as an insert. Difference ? none, except that on the Fat Valve mixers, the Fats are loaded once and for all at the begining of the project, making them available whenever and forever.
The FB5 also exists with Rotary faders (same curve as faders, with 0dB at 70 % approx).

FB5 "fader" is a special "live" edition (giant faders/vus).
- By comparison the FP10 (no valve) take barely 3 dsps (full on).
- Recommended 6 dsp (to put a few effects!) but should load on a luna.
- The FP8 (no valve) takes approximately the same as the FP10 (you may have seen it since july on spacef.com).
- There is no "FP" version of the FB5.
- The FP versions have an insert slot instead of the fat.
F: means FAT
P: pre-inserts
FP: means with a pre-insert special to load "fat" effect, also the generic name of the collection.
5/8/10: refers to the number of stereo channels. the more stereo, the less mono (5: 5 stereo+8 mono, 8:8 stereo+6 mono, 10: 10 stereo+6 mono).
For the rest of the features it is more or less the same as MixSat C2 (build with Mc2 core (which is basically an insert+ gain, with some modifications).
So, my question is :
Is 7 dsp enough ?
Is dsp allocation really useful !!

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:29 pm
by bill3107
For DSP usage, that's a great feature indeed as i am not bill31074live

... I will soon try it ! This is an anouncement right ?
Jo
PS : I love this GUI very much.
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:45 am
by spacef
lol

yes a kind of annoncement. 1 week/10 days i guess to decide about the above mixers.
Thanks
Mehdi
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:10 pm
by dawman
Please,.,..stay seated.
Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:53 pm
by dawman
Mehdi deserves all of the credit.
This was what I wanted for my synths and samplers, but can be used to do many MIDI tricks with all audio.
I first told Mehdi I wanted a morphing mixer to modulate between channels, where different synths could be used as a sound source. He informed me that I was insane, but we bounced ideas and came up with a device used like his satellites, where the LFO's can morph between the channels. 2 different mono synths can be used, or a stereo synth panned hard. On each channel of the stereo synth I can have different effects stacked up. The LFO rate controls the morphing, and each channel can have different effects. Each one of his mono effects are top shelf, and can be found nowhere else in our platform. Like Liquid, Moonizer, etc. There are literally dozens available.
I could rave on but the possibilities are endless. When using my controller, I can click off and on the bypass buttons for various effects on each channel w/o any level jumping, or audio dropouts, or zippering effects. This is the exact reason I always prefer hardware effects. I cannot tolerate the zippering when changing the size of the hall for reverbs, or the ratre of echos. Those are the kind of limitations that keep me buried in hardware. Even software synths do that crap, however if you ever sweep waves in a Bowen synth, this is averted.
I love to create with guys like Mehdi, because he will tell you that it can't be done, but always has a similar workaround.
In the last year I have made my synths very signature sounding live thanks to mixing capabilities achieved only in software.
DAS has made the best live FOH / Monitor mixer I ever used, SpaceF has made the ultimate synth and sampler mixer for me, and it looks as though Wolf has a great recording 32 channel mixer coming up. We are surely seeing some great mixers for SFP.
I will never stop using hardware effects , and I will never again use a hardware mixer, except to route all of Scopes In's and Out's to my Barbettas, and rotary cabs. Scope has propelled me into the future where I shall flourish.
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:44 am
by FrancisHarmany
nice, nice.....
How does AUX Crossfading work ?
And what about the channel morphing ? Does this mean each channel
has multiple inputs ? Or can we select channels to morph between......
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:00 pm
by spacef
Hi Francis,
I think that by "morphing" Scope4Live refers to filter/pan effects made with the modulated filters/inserts. He is far more advanced than me in this respect. Somebody should film him doing it.
Aux crossfading: by crossfading, we understand a crossfading "from parallel to chained" auxiliary returns.
- you have 3 Aux sends that you can use normally, ie, send to external effects and/or to internal inserts. (inserts are last, ie, they can be put after the return of external effect).
- Let's take Aux 3 as an example:
- Under the label "From" you have several input gains: "From" refers to the source of the inserts (in full words: "where does the signal that receive insert slot come from").
- From r3 : the gain of whatever is connected to aux return 3 (r3 L/R on the mixer)
- From Direct: it's the signal from the channel's aux send.
- From Aux 1: the signal of aux1 output (post insert) is sent to aux 3
- From Aux 2 : the signal of aux 2 outs (post insert) is sentto aux 3.
Aux 2 can take signal from aux 1.
It is made to be able to mix effects: for example :
- aux 3 reverb
- aux 2: delay
- aux 1: modulated filter
You want some sound on reverb, but you also want sounds with delay+reverb, or some with modulated filter +that is sent sometimes to the delay, sometimes to the reverb, ans ometimes to nothing (just itself). You just need to set the three effects, then you can manipulate the "From Aux (x) " gains to crossfade between effects.
Aux Crossfading is something useful to create lively effects (for live or studio). It allows to use the aux to make more than with non-crossfaded aux.
Now, you have two aux slot per aux return: you can chain 2 effects, or equalize one main effect (or load a rack to make bigger chains).
There is also a preset list just for the aux, so you can store your favorite chains.
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:31 am
by borg
hi, it all looks great!
the aux crossfade sounds good, but why not the option to send (feedback) it to itself? in 'those hardware days' i used to put the fx returns to a stereo channel, rather than to the aux return inputs, very cool for delays, especially if you have four aux fx all fed to eachother. i should do this more again.
anyway, in this 'closed' mixer (like in: no dynamic channel count) it means you loose one of the 16 channels if you want to feed an aux fx to itself.
SpaceF Echo somehow offers an option for this technique, but it's not quite the same...
one could always use strings of smaller mixers to achieve the same in a 'modular mixer' kind of way, but why not have it simple in the device itself...
just a suggestion.
maybe there are system limitations?
oh yes: 4 aux channels would give some more options...

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:59 am
by spacef
Hi Andy,
I think the word "static" is more appropriate (versus "dynamic").
There will be only 3 Aux at the moment. May be in an uncertain hypothetical future, there could be a 4 or 6 aux version, but not immediately because i like the current slim design that allows to have a view on the project window and to let the mixer sit at the bottom of the screen most of the time. But in the future, why not. it is not a technical limitation.
Now, it should be possible to add an activable feedback on one or two of the last stereo channels. I hope 2 is enough?.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Mehdi
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:09 am
by dawman
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:33 pm
by borg
spacef wrote:Now, it should be possible to add an activable feedback on one or two of the last stereo channels. I hope 2 is enough?.
i'm not sure if i understand this correctly... do you mean aux stereo channels? or is it not possible at the moment to do this kind of fx feedback mixing at all, and you need to add a module to prevent this 'feedback error message' i remember from the past when working with modular. you needed a special feedback module to prevent the error message.
i'm very tired. sorry if this sounds confusing. your mixer looks really appealing. especially since you seem to have somehow built the midi implementation around the BCR2000
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:40 am
by spacef
borg wrote:spacef wrote:Now, it should be possible to add an activable feedback on one or two of the last stereo channels. I hope 2 is enough?.
i'm not sure if i understand this correctly... do you mean aux stereo channels? or is it not possible at the moment to do this kind of fx feedback mixing at all, and you need to add a module to prevent this 'feedback error message' i remember from the past when working with modular. you needed a special feedback module to prevent the error message.
I have this module, now inside the mixer.
I've put feedback on 2 of the main stereo channels, and 2 additional "tape in" channels (that go to the master but not to aux). This way you can choose either to resend to "normal" channels of the mixer, or simply mix it back in the mixer if you don't need to resend again to Aux.
It is activable by the user because a feedback module delays the signal by 1 sample. We don't want our signals to be delayed by one sample when not using the feedback features. But we want it when needed, to avoid the "feedback error message". So you will have to press the "F" button to use feedback. Yo ustill need to connect cables yourselfs though, from your desired in/outs.
borg wrote:i'm very tired. sorry if this sounds confusing. your mixer looks really appealing. especially since you seem to have somehow built the midi implementation around the BCR2000
BCR2000 or any other controller that sends Midi CCs. Some feature have been built especially to survive switching off scope and being well saved in midi controller presets when you reload the project (may be you noticed that sometimes, controllers look like they are assigned but in fact the control doesn't work anymore). So I've built my mixers to avoid this, which gives you a device that can be permanently assigned to a hardware controller (and which allow parameter feedback if desired, by connecting the midi out of the mixer to the Seq-Dest which coresponds to the BCR/Controller).
Mehdi
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:24 am
by spacef
sheeps and sleep ? nixt
seeking cheeky chicks to flip the sheets, ist.
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:53 am
by dawman
The Behringers are a very cheap and great way to use this, but believe it or not, I can mix just fine on my KS88's. The faders are very good. I just have to remember to take them out of the drawbar mode where the faders are reversed !!
Some of CW's synths had to have certain CC's re established evertime you start them from a project. DJ Micron fixed my B2003's rotary speed controller for me and sent it back with my name on it
Once I set all of my volumes for Gigastudio samples ( 12 stereo channels ), In Bidule I use a MIDI CC Filter that dis allows any volume chages ( CC #7 ). That keeps those levels frozen, then I can adjust tweaks w/ the AUX's , or levels of the FAT inserts. They really nail any increases I might need. Since I use 2 x Barbetta 32C powered monitors, I simply pan a desired instrument L or R for better seperation, then add the valve amount in the FAT insert. Since there are so many instruments going into this mixer, seperation in this method yeilds much better results than the usual boring ( yawn,yawn ) fader moves.
This really is not a conventional mixer, but rather a multi channel sound processor w/ total MIDI control.
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:56 am
by FrancisHarmany
Mehdi, what does the "F" knob ( above mono inserts ) do ?
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:43 am
by spacef
(sorry, Feedback button is "Fb"

)
F is a cutoff: an on-panel frequency controls for satellites.
You can load mono effects in the mono inserts but also spacef filter satellites, this common control is nice to assgign to a rotary knob. it can be used for one or several satellites. It does not change the way mono inserts work so you can put a filter anywhere in the chain. It is also independant from the pre-filter cutoff.
Mehdi
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:30 am
by borg
regarding feedback: sounds great Mehdi.
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:17 am
by dawman
Speaking Of Mehdi,
I have finally got the time to stop learning lyrics, bass, keys, and patchy creations to listen to WAX-S.
It rules supremely as a Wah-Wah . I first tried it's vast amount of control on my D6 / Wurlitzer / Rhodes libraries and was floored at it's authenticity. But things got really FAT w/ ProWave, and your different settings in the Amp / Out FX area's.
If you haven't heard this masterpiece of a Wah-Wah, you ain't heard jack shit. It's incredible. I even have my guitars in reverse with this thing and I am elated.
I have only done sparse jobs recently, this week is Brooks & Dunn at the Hilton. So no synths, strictly Honky-Tonk piano. Scope would go over like a turd in a punch bowl there. But I have had so much time to learn new devices, and many I already had, but lacked the proper tweaking time. This is the life my friends.
Mehdi is now the name of a GOD amongst men. His name will be chiseled on my favorite diving rocks of Lake Tahoe. If you die before I do, I shall give you the Viking funeral at Lake Tahoe.
I am seriously stoked !!!!
SO IT SHALL BE WRITTEN, SO IT SHALL BE DONE. ( Yule Brennar...1956 )
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:16 pm
by spacef
I swear I am not paying jimmy for anything he says

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:37 pm
by dawman
Bull Shit, I thought you said the Multi-Tap would be FREE !!!!