PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

This is to help those using Gigastudio in the Scope enviroment.

www.wavelore.com/extras.shtml

Strength Through Knowledge,

thanks ... very interesting indeed. I plan to build a SCOPE + GS system so all informations are welcome ...

Jo

You won't be sorry. Gigastudio 4 is at present in Alpha, soon to be Beta. I pray that the GSIF 1.7 Creamware drivers somehow work, but I won't get excited as it is 64bit / Vista, and I doubt it will still be 32bit XP compatible, but time will tell.

I strongly reccomend upgrading GS3 to GVI for 75 USD, and that app is able to load tons of content on a Core Duo, and even Quad now via a VST host. I am using Bidule .095, and it is a great way to use Scope.

Even if Creamware doesn't upgrade it's drivers to Vista or GS4, GS3 / GVI is a live players dream, and loads all 150GB's of my content !! Truly a must for live work, as GS3 gets little action except when I need to create perfromances and edit them.

PM me anytime about this, you waited for the right time as GS3 is going for peanuts. Just try to buy legit, so you can upgrade to GVI. With all of the great devices we have here in Scope, my samples are incredibly detailed, especially the vintage, and orchestral stuff.

Hi Scope4Live

what do you think about DEF filter ?
i just bought GS3 Orchestra (installed on a dedicaced PC for Sonic Implant Strings)
i tried some DEF patches include in the Sonic Bundle but i m not really impressed
Did you try to tweak the DEF filter a little to get better results ?
i like the idea of the DEF, but it sounds a little rough to my ears

One of the purpose of the Tutorial is to reduce the number of Patches Layers, so we could only use 1 velocity Layer and recover some memory for other patches
(very nice idea)
but the results is not very natural IMHO
perhaps should I tweak the DEF a little more with the help of this tutorial but i had thought (am i wrong ?) that Sonic Implant programed the DEF in the right way for this Library

thanks for help

Just keep trying different settings. Some larger libraries might not yield expected results, as they were made with the layers originally to be more dynamic. DEF has done wonders for GigaPiano II, and is now 600MB's in size.

Years ago I tried to do this so I could put Giga samples in the STS series of samplers and have a Creamware only box, but after struggling w/ STS I decided that Giga w/ Scope cards is a Giga dedicated DAW and works flawlessly live. The CPU, and RAM is used by Giga, and the DSP's are dedicated to Scope in a perfectly mutual enviroment. I believe that was Creamware's finest move to integrate it's application to date.

I have the SISS library and think it is a masterpiece. Sure other apps have more articulations, but SI captured the sections perfectly as far as the sound quality goes. The girl who recorded and engineered this is extremely talented, and I will continue to buy any of her work. Vintage String Boxes is also another app of hers I bought. She recorded every aspect of the ARP String Ensemble meticulously, and with small amounts of memory. The Mellotron also was very realistic.

I think DEF was created to be used when first recording the instruments originally, and has been used with good results on those that don't really require 16 layers. The whole idea of recording release samples is a marketing ploy IMHO. They are seldom heard, and I prefer playing the sounds as opposed to disecting every useless kb in hopes of attaining further realism. I.E. the Hohner D6 Clavinet. I can't think of a single recording where I can remember the sound of the release of a D6 note? Some developers have convinced us that we need them. I beg to differ. Usually when I do clav licks, I need to mimick the muting fader more than the sound of the note being released. These guys are just selling their libraries based on size. Wow,...a 2 GB clav !! It's gotta be good, it costs several hundred dollars. I would rather use DEF to get rid of those " release " samples, and keep the meat and potatoes.

Mark Belbin the developer from........www.wavelore.com.........is further refining the GigaPiano II library for me using DEF, and the pedaling models as well. I told him of the great polyphonic EQ that works with velocity and how I applied it to the piano samples after DEF's first rendition of it, and it added further control as well as EQ to an already great example of DEF. But that requires Scope. Don't know if you use Scope, but MCCY is the developer, and his device is called the PolyEK. It can be found in the device threads here at the Z.

I am not sure what GS4 will bring us, but I would wait until it's release before buying any more expensive libraries. As it's release will cause many libraries to cut their prices drastically. Then you could buy those, as well as GVI, and edit with DEF and of course see the power of GVI for a mere 75 USD, as it will run in standalone, and load way more content than Giga 3. Also, check out the Learngigastudio DVD's by Larry Seyer @ ........www.learngigastudio.com........they have a wealth of knowledge not found in the manuals. But the guys who made the video have such monotone voices that I had to add a little Lexicon reverb to the audio through Creamware's 24bit WAV module just to stay awake !! It was as bad as Cubase's annoying sounding click. How can anyone record with that hideous sound I will never know.

I would not hesitate in the upgrade to GVI for 75 USD. You will soon use Giga to create, and GVI to perform. Besides, the Continuios Velocity Piano is included, and is worth the asking price alone. Westgate's Acoustic Guitar, and many others are great sounding instruments.

Welcome To The Giga / Scope World,

thanks for your help Scope4live

i m actually tweak my library a lot (remove release sample etc ..) and play a little more with DEF filter
a lot of nice possibility with GS3, the more i use it, the more i love it
i m going to buy GVI too on a second PC instead of Kontakt 2

we all waiting for GS4

thanks again
it's a pleasure to read your experience and tips and tricks

It might appear after the AES show in NYC in October.

I bought K2 . I cannot stand it's workflow, with it's constant shutdowns to save certain work arounds. But there are some great developers working for them, so to have both provides extra content, and performance features.

I think GS4 will bring new talent as well as content back to where it belongs.

AES is a good place to demo a new product. As nobody at NAMM cares to hear beta's, or read roadmaps. You either have it, or you don't.

Gatam wrote: i like the idea of the DEF, but it sounds a little rough to my ears.....but i had thought (am i wrong ?) that Sonic Implant programed the DEF in the right way for this Library

thanks for help

Hi All,

I just joined up to say hi, (hi!) and thanks for your interest in my tutorial, and to clarify the above for Gatam. Thanks also to Jimmy for posting this.

Hi Gatam,
The DEF can sound alittle rough, depending on how it's used, and the upon the samples it's used on. That's not to say there's anything wrong with the SI samples or their application of the filters. (I don't own them, but I do have some of the SI semoware included with GVI and GS3, and they are greatt. I also know of them as being some of the finest out there, from hearing demos and reading user comments). However, there is one thing about SI's approach that I would improve upon, though there is a good argument for the way they have done it.

That thing is:

Recording ambience. AFAIK, the SI symphonic collection was being recorded before GS3 came out, and was released approximately concurrently with GS3. Now GS did not include dynamic filtering until v.3.1, released approximately a year after first release. Thus, SI would have originally planned a library without relying on i) the DEF, or ii) Convolution reverb. Creating a library like this would neccessitate recording the ambience of the hall, and thus, using long release samples to capture the natural decay of the acoustic space.

IMHO, today we no longer need this approach. If samples can be recorded dry, whay not do it that way, since we have so many lush sounding options for adding ambience? This was even true before convolution, and I've noticed that many of you folks here at planet Z are enamoured of your hardware verb units. Why not? Let's lose those big ol' releases, make our libraries smaller, and use whatever ambience we want!

So after the SI stuff was recorded and programmed, the TASCAM guys give them the DEF filter, and they go "Wow! We can elimate some velocity layers, do away with xfading for dynamics, and give the user a good sounding relatime dynamics control! Let's do it". Great. AFAIK, they were the first. Problem is, they then proceeded to apply the filters to the sound of the instruments, and the hall. This has two drawbacks: 1) Moving the DEF controller (say, modwheel) after release will continuously morph the release tail. One must cease controller movement after release. Period. 2) Applying the DEF not only changes the timbral characteristics of the instrument in question, but also to the ongoing reflections heard in the primary sample itself. This is not acoustically "true": The room should be a constant, the only variables being the frequencies and amplitudes pumped into it by the instruments. It cannot sound narural to force the sound of reflections to morph according to parameters set to emulate the timbral and volume changes of an instrument. The ambience also clouds the samples, making it more difficult to accurately calibrate the filters for the instruments. The end result is doomed to be one where there is a combination of innacurate filter settings, as well as a room sound whose characteristics morph with the samples. Play a dynamoc line with such a library, and the likely outcome is somethings that sounds as if it were pasted together from recordings created in different rooms.

I'm not trying to point out flaws in SI's approach..indeed the inclusion of DEF presets in their symphonic collection is something of an afterthought, and a feature well worth having there. The non-DEF versions are still there, and they are still industry-standard.

The point I'm trying to make is for your understanding of the DEF's tranparency. This is an amazing tool. It would be better applied to instruments like VSL's stuff, which are recorded basically dry, for insertion into a virtual space of the user's choice. That's why if I ever create a string library, it will be recorded this way, and the DEF will be integral to making it a manageable library, at equal or greater size to the current go-to string libs, but with more round-robins and articulations.

All the Best,
Belbin

p.s. As I said, I came out of interest/appreciation for this thread. I'm not a scope user, so I probably won't check in that often, but if anyone has a question about this stuff and wants a quick reply, feel free to mailto: support@wavelore.com

Thanks a lot Mark for your great explanations !!!
i understand a lot of things now
i m going to try the DEF filter on other instruments
(thanks for you great tutorial about it)

Ladies and Gentlemen,...........................................Belbin.

Man Or Myth.


For anyone interested in knowing, I stole Mark from from the Northern Sounds Forum where the words I prefer using are banned. But so many of their products that are pushed there really suck, and deserve my chosen phrases.



Welcome aboard Brotha' Man Belbin !