PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Hi
got a question - how to correctly use dither Shaper module.If i made project in 48khz/24bit- so to mixdown i turn on Sound Forge to record 44/16bit file and in Master section of a scope mixer i put DS module in insert1 with bit res 16 parameter.Is it correct?
Thanx

On 2006-04-02 05:16, sidx wrote:
Hi
got a question - how to correctly use dither Shaper module.If i made project in 48khz/24bit- so to mixdown i turn on Sound Forge to record 44/16bit file and in Master section of a scope mixer i put DS module in insert1 with bit res 16 parameter.Is it correct?
Thanx

Why did you use 48khz if you had to end with a 44.1 file? Downsampling is never a good idea if you don't specifically need a 48khz version too...I could understand much higher formats (96khz,192khz) but 48khz is not worth, unless it's for multimedia purposes where that is the requestd format.

Anyway, I would get a single stereo file mix at 48khz/24bits, after that I would transform it offline at 44.1khz/24 bits, then pass it as you said through the dither and record at 16bits, also because if you record at 44,1 khz, all your system must be clocked at that frequency and a 48khz file would sound strange.

On 2006-04-02 06:22, alfonso wrote:
Anyway, I would get a single stereo file mix at 48khz/24bits, after that I would transform it offline at 44.1khz/24 bits, then pass it as you said through the dither and record at 16bits, also because if you record at 44,1 khz, all your system must be clocked at that frequency and a 48khz file would sound strange.

You know if you create record Sound Forge session it can be any samplerate - no link with Scope and DAW clock as i know...Ok so
you think there is no sense to use 48khz?I using a lot of hardware synthesys so i was guided to make record quility more better as i can.96khz sure is good but i dont like files sizes and DSP usage.And realy i didnt heared some vital increase of qulity in 96 in my case and in case of people who working in 96...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: sidx on 2006-04-02 07:40 ]</font>

If you can't hear a difference between 48k and 96k, then the difference between 44.1k and 48k is beyond negligible. Stick to 44.1k, it's easier in the long run.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr Arkadin on 2006-04-02 07:48 ]</font>

roger that

i suspect this

anyway main question was - is DS module usage correct in my case or not.So if project is 24bit - to record it in 16 DS must be in master insert with 16 bit res settings as i understood.And there are some options like shaper and dither.I dont know what they means and what needs.

On 2006-04-02 08:00, sidx wrote:
roger that

i suspect this

anyway main question was - is DS module usage correct in my case or not.So if project is 24bit - to record it in 16 DS must be in master insert with 16 bit res settings as i understood.And there are some options like shaper and dither.I dont know what they means and what needs.

Yes, the dithering must be the latest process going on.
Regarding the choice it's much depending on the stuff you have to dither. It's very much an ear thing, I've never used it, because i do this process in another app, I can't recommend any setting, particularly.

Basically dithering is some very low level noise that makes the very low levels fading in a pleasant way in this noise instead of being truncated. To achieve the bit reduction it's not necessary to do this for all the spectrum, you can chose some bands, very often very high, far from an immediate perception. This added noise have a minimum masking effect on those frequencies, so sometimes it makes sense to shape this noise towards a certain range of frequencies, it dipends on the music material.
This is usually a mastering competence, you have to grow a certain skill using your ear and some experimentation.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: alfonso on 2006-04-02 08:17 ]</font>

afaik the exact 'type' or 'structure' of the dither noise is a (well kept) business secret at certain companies making mastering devices
not all noises are created equal

cheers, tom

so it means that all hardware/software solutions works with different effect?
I heared that Wavelab software do this best.But in my taste DS module in scope more comfortable because you doing this in a same time with mixdown.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: sidx on 2006-04-02 13:17 ]</font>

On 2006-04-02 13:15, sidx wrote:
so it means that all hardware/software solutions works with different effect?
I heared that Wavelab software do this best.But in my taste DS module in scope more comfortable because you doing this in a same time with mixdown.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: sidx on 2006-04-02 13:17 ]</font>

Steinberg uses U22, that's a design from Apogee, very good indeed. Other top notch algorythms are POW-r, used by Samplitude and some other apps.

My preferred method is to mixdown a 32bit file, without finalizing plugs. After that I load a new Scope pro just to finalize that 32bit mix, recording the result as 32bit master. Then, I just apply a dithering plug in in the recording app and export the 16 bit file.
In this way I can have a 32 bit mix file that could be re-mastered, a 32 bit master file that could still be processed or exported in a different format with better results and the final 16bit file.
I like mastering in Scope, so I like to have a Scope project dedicated to that only with all the compressors, EQ, mid/side insert plug and all I need to try for the best result. But I prefer to keep the dithering process as another stage.

yeah this way is realy good...

While ago I was doing personal comparison between different dither algos.
For some strange reason, Scope dither module did no dithering at all, no matter what settings were chosen.

heh so it looks realy better use offline dither in other apps...

you don't have to dither at all.
the dither module DOES work just fine, however.