PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Hello, i am a fellow human just like you.
Today i discovered that the Minimax ASB had been released and i downloaded some demo .mp3 from Creamwares site.

So i thought to myself, this might be worth buying, even though i think 800euro is expensive for a 1-part VA synth.
Then it struck me, why not buy a Pulsar card instead?

So my questions is this:

Is it possible to use the Pulsar card only as "external" synthesizers and not a soundcard?
I want to keep the soundcar i use now so the Pulsar should not handle anything asio.

The way i want to use it is by plugging it outs into my soundcard ins, and connect some midicables to control the Pulsar synthesizers, load some plugins - effects and finally create music..

Am i way off here? I dont even know if it works this way.

And whats up with the XTC mode? I cant find anything on the Creamware site that mention this XTC-thingy. Is it about using the instruments and effects in a VST-enviroment?

Any help appriciated.

Chocolate.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Micronesia on 2005-11-10 12:32 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Micronesia on 2005-11-10 12:33 ]</font>

So my questions is this:

Is it possible to use the Pulsar card only as "external" synthesizers and not a soundcard?
I want to keep the soundcar i use now so the Pulsar should not handle anything asio.

Yes this is entirely possible, and how I used to run my system. I had an maudio 1010 and my scope card hooked up. In the end I got rid of the 1010


The way i want to use it is by plugging it outs into my soundcard ins, and connect some midicables to control the Pulsar synthesizers, load some plugins - effects and finally create music..

Am i way off here? I dont even know if it works this way.

Yes again. If your soundcard has adat inputs then it's even better because a pulsar has two adat outs. Thats 16 simultaneous channels. If you're thinking stereo then your greatly reducing options, and thats not what scope should be about.

And whats up with the XTC mode? I cant find anything on the Creamware site that mention this XTC-thingy. Is it about using the instruments and effects in a VST-enviroment?


XTC as far as I'm concerned isn't worth the time involved to set it up and running. Thats to say it's not as straightforward as it could or should be. I and alot of others here use the scope environment (which is pretty much like a complete virtual studio) to route, mix and manage audio/midi.

Another point is DSP power. How many sysnths do you want to run? If your main interest is the minimax then a pulsar should serve you well, although you do need to take into acount any other modules you might load into the environment as they will take up additional DSP.

Mabye someone else here could provide some details of DSP usage on a pulsar card alone.

Thanks for that reply!

If i stay away from using it as a soundcard i wont have to fear any compability problems with mothercards etc right??

Another question: Is it possible to automate the effects using midi controllers? If you want realtime change on the effects, is it someway you can record it to a sequenser? (And not into a .wav file

Is possible to control the knobs on the synthesizers with midi CC?? So i can use hardware gear to control the pulsar plugs.

Edit: And one more question - what is the difference between the Miniscope synthesizers that was bundled with the Pulsar cards and the Minimax plugin? They are all minimoog clones right? Is it just that the later costs money and therefore are better sounding??

Will the Pulsar be easy on the PCI bus if leave out all asio handling?
I ask this because more PCI-stress on the mothercard could be a problem when using my other souncard at the same time.
The only thing as far as PCIstress would be Gui information between Scope and the Pulsar card right?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Micronesia on 2005-11-10 13:36 ]</font>

On 2005-11-10 12:32, Micronesia wrote:
...So i thought to myself, this might be worth buying, even though i think 800euro is expensive for a 1-part VA synth...

well, your calculation lacks some of the small print
any VA synth needs some hardware to produce signals that finally set air into motion, so even a 20 bucks shareware VSTI has an effectively higher price.
The Minimax ASB contains hardware in the price range of a Scope home at least and even if almost completely hidden - the Scope OS is present as well (in some form).

Then there's a rackmount and a knob for each parameter.
If you've ever tried to completely(!) automate a software synth with an average midi controller (which normally isn't free either), you know that this costs at least some hair, if not a few months of your life...

Makes the close-to-800-Euro tag not look too bad in this context.
Let alone that the vintage original is rarely sold for less than 2k Euro.

Anyway, if you'd like a broader range of synths a sellout NOAH is worth considering - same technology, same sound, same price range.
Not that I want to talk you into it, but just to mention, as it's a shameless bargain.
You'll never get such an independent synth/fx package again for such a low entry fee.

cheers, Tom

On 2005-11-10 13:24, Micronesia wrote:
...what is the difference between the Miniscope synthesizers that was bundled with the Pulsar cards and the Minimax plugin? They are all minimoog clones right? Is it just that the later costs money and therefore are better sounding??...

no way - the Miniscope is a synth with an identical structure as a Minimoog, while the Minimax exactly emulates the oscillator and filter circuits - it's a completely different plugin and requires 5 times as much processing power as a Miniscope.

cheers, Tom

On 2005-11-10 13:24, Micronesia wrote:
...Will the Pulsar be easy on the PCI bus if leave out all asio handling?
I ask this because more PCI-stress on the mothercard could be a problem when using my other souncard at the same time.
The only thing as far as PCIstress would be Gui information between Scope and the Pulsar card right? ...

There is no GUI interchange between the card and the SFP software. The card receives only 'controller' values and data.
You will definetely not be able to stress the PCI bus with Scope ASIO (given you have a decent mobo)
You will only reach that limit with certain high quality reverbs as they need main memory for temporary storage. Do a search on 'PCI capacity limit' in this context - 1000s of lines have been written...

cheers, tom

Ok thanks for the replys all of you!!
Well Astroman ive decided to go super compact, sold much of my stuff and got a fancy-dancy Virus Ti Keaybordi!!! So hopefully Access will fix the damn thing and i will get my Remote mode working, that way i can just set up all the CC information once and then store them as templates.. Easy

The fantastic thing is that it will be still as much of the super-compactness if i would get a pulsar card to sit inside the computer eating information and electricity all day.
And still have lots of more synthesizer options...

So now i got some more questions for you.

How much in percent does a 1 voice Minimax use of one DSP?
The same question for the Pro-TOne.

Is the Profit5 the exact same thing a 5-voiced Pro-Tone?

I searched away on the forumsea and discovered that the synthesizers are indeed Midi CC# mappable - great! But still, what about the effects? Using a Rate reducer or flanger without some recorded realtime action is like a Santa without rednoseblinking raindeers.. (?)

if all you use is the minimax, you can get about three(maybe four) on a scope project(pulsar2).

i gaurantee you, the pulsar is a better soundcard AND mixer/effects unit than almost ANYthing else you could possibly have. period.

just my opinion.

in general every knob/button on any SCOPE synth or effect can be right clicked and then u activate the controller u want to (as in turn a knob, press a button etc.). this CC mapping can afterwards be stored as a preset within the effect/synth. plus u can prolly save it in your sequencer as well.

here's some other points:

- Voices: an ASB can produce 12 voices. a typical Pulsar II can produce about 5 or practically at a single instance.

- ASB referred to as 1-part VA: well you are right, at least for some time being. however, a bird has wispered quite loudly that an upcoming ASB software update will make the ASB multi-timbral. BUT if you consider buying now, consider the buy 1-part, as OSX also was planned for SFP some years ago and is still not here

my modest conclusion:

- if u want a minimoog clone, ready and steady to use, with lots of voices, and integrates perfectly as a VSTi, go ASB.

- If you want a minimoog, a shitload of quality stuff not available to the everyday cracked vsti user, a decent sampler, a VERY good modular system (i think you'd loved that one), plus routing possibilities u never thought of, go SCOPE!

my huble opinions,
piddi.

few to add to GaryB and Piddi
but

On 2005-11-10 14:24, Micronesia wrote:
...great! But still, what about the effects? Using a Rate reducer or flanger without some recorded realtime action is like a Santa without rednoseblinking raindeers.. (?)

that's a reallygood one
you managed to break down the essence of Scope into one funny line of nonsense
yeah, it's not rednoseblinking...
but this Santa has gifts, tons of - and isn't that the most important thing about a Santa at all ?

honestly, if you browse this forum (which you've obviously done) you'll find of course complaints about 'nothing new...' etc.
Of course this is contrary to what we experience in the PC industry (which started to become a self-fulfilling promise about 15 years ago) - and some bells and whistles may lack indeed...

But that's a natural matter of fact.
How do you want to improve something close to perfect ?

Conceptually that Virus you bought is not too distant from it's very first version.
It is improved and got more features, no doubt, but basically it's still THAT single VA synth.
Access is working for nearly 10 years (?) on that subject - and there is no need at all to change the basic layout of a Virus.

You may have noticed that the changes in appearance always superceeded the technical modifications.
They have a good marketing at Access - but also some smart developers, with quotes like ... the art in synth design is to NOT pick the mathematically correct version of a programm (as anyone could do that by looking it up in a book), but to choose one that SOUNDS good...

And the delay in the TI release shows how difficult it has become to work in this PC developement mess even for a very focussed and economically solid company.

What CWA does is about a factor of 10 to 20 more complex than Access' synth developement.
Not excuse them, but to direct to a reasonable point of view.

So back to your realtime modulation...
forget about the rednoseblinking stupid recording of a few midi bytes - of course you can do that (if you assign a midi controller to the respective parameter and route midi data to the sequencer).

But in SFP you can pick modulated controller signals from anywhere of the setup and use them with the flanger (in this example).
For example an envelope-follower on a drum track could phase-shift the signal.
And instead of a simple flanger you can route your audio signal through any module with an audio input (which are hundreds), let alone the modular synth... and you can build chains and parallel lines until your DSPs go up in smoke.

There's this strange chorus vibrato of the Hammond - well, I once bought the CWA B3 emulation just for this effect (ok, also for the Leslie and tube sim...) but I did NOT buy it to play the organ.
You can mix almost anything with anything in SFP, it's your phantasy and creativity that's the limit, not the technology

cheers, Tom

astro said it again.

Hello Again.
In advance i would like to apologize for any spelling errors, English is not my first language, so its not the case of me being lazy.

May i first say that i really like the atmosphere of this place - i thought about this yesterday.
That there really is certain atmospheric "smells" to different forums.

I have noticed that the most intelleuctal people seem to hang out at the Clavia Modular forums, and there is a common interest of the creation of noodles - eversounding patches.
To some extent i would call people there math geeks, but not at all in a negative way. Friendly, if a little stiff.

The unofficial virus forums on the other hand is the opposite - lots of kids shouting about, whining and posting animated .gif`s.
Reading to much of the posts there can in worst case give you eye-tinnitus.

And the feeling around here feels mostly friendly really.
Both a cosy and respectfull, may i ask if you are all hippies?

The interesting thing is that all forums contains a mix of different people but together they always sum up to a certain "smell" or feeling.
Together we shape this world.

Anyways, im sure i will get a Pulsar or Scope card in the future.
The Minimax-ASB are sure a fine piece of equipment but there is just so much more that could be done with a scope card.
Except for having more synthesis i will be able to route my Virus alternative outputs into the scope and give it a creamware makeover. Very flexible.

Actually, to me - the Virus is not such a convincing synthesizer in terms of analogness.
Its capable of bass, but if you take a saw with a wide open filter there is not so much of the "ssSSS", it sounds somewhat muddy.

However if you accept that it really is not a perfect analog emulation, you will realise that it is a great allrounder, packed with flexible features.

And the new concept of the total integration is very attractive.
But in its current stage i would not say that it is working like advertised for all of us who bought a TI.

Back to the Pulsar, why is there so little information about dsp usage on both Creamwares site as well as third party plugin sites?
For me who does not own a Pulsar card but want to get one, it is very confusing to know how much i will be able to load on a 6-dsp card.
There should be specific tables for this!
And overall, i find Creamwares site to be a maze with alot of 404:s - this cant be good at all for the purpose of selling creamware products!

Now some new questions for you!

1. DSP usage..
Ok, would i be able to load the simplest mixer + 1 voice Minimax + 1 voice Prodyssey + 1 voice ProTone on a 6 DSP card?

"if all you use is the minimax, you can get about three(maybe four) on a scope project(pulsar2). "

garyb: does that mean four minimaxes (1 voice) or a four voiced minimax?

2. I have heard of filter stepping effects when assigning a CC controller to some of the bundled small synthesizers.
But what abut synths like the Minimax, ProTone & Prodyssey, do the filters step when controlled from midi or do they have coded smoothing algorhitms like the Virus or Nordlead?

3. Do a 1 voice Profit 5 sound the same as the ProTone - if not - wich is the most authentic sounding?
(Because as far as i know, the hardware synthesizer Pro One would sound exactly the same as a 1 voiced Pro5)

4. How RAM demanding is the Pulsar with ASIO features unused/disabled?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Micronesia on 2005-11-12 11:04 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Micronesia on 2005-11-12 11:08 ]</font>

yes, you will be able to run that, but really, you'll want to treat the scope synths like they are real. when you like the part, record it and eliminate the synth to save dsp. you can always save the midi track and the patch as a preset.

the filters are very smooth, as smooth as the controller moving their knobs.

i meant four individual synths.

the pro tone and profit5 sound different, just like the real ones did. either is a treat.

scope is not very memory demanding when idle. (pulsar is an old name, same product ) delays and reverb will use a little memory and the sampler will use a bunch. otherwise, scope is running on dsps, not the host. the graphic is just the interface to control the card. i usually suggest at least 1gb, but 512k works great for 99% of what you might do. a lot of big samples might require more......

1. DSP usage..
Ok, would i be able to load the simplest mixer + 1 voice Minimax + 1 voice Prodyssey + 1 voice ProTone on a 6 DSP card?

- yes.

"if all you use is the minimax, you can get about three(maybe four) on a scope project(pulsar2). "

garyb: does that mean four minimaxes (1 voice) or a four voiced minimax?

- as garyb pointed out, 3 or 4 instances

2. I have heard of filter stepping effects when assigning a CC controller to some of the bundled small synthesizers.
But what abut synths like the Minimax, ProTone & Prodyssey, do the filters step when controlled from midi or do they have coded smoothing algorhitms like the Virus or Nordlead?

-my german sucks, but this article has nice sweeping mp3 demos: http://www.amazona.de/content/musictool ... inimax.htm

3. Do a 1 voice Profit 5 sound the same as the ProTone - if not - wich is the most authentic sounding?
(Because as far as i know, the hardware synthesizer Pro One would sound exactly the same as a 1 voiced Pro5)

- im not a techie myself but within the prophet 5 synths revisions they are using different components, hence giving different "sound" between the different revisions. with that in mind i think the pro one sounded different from the p5 as well.

4. How RAM demanding is the Pulsar with ASIO features unused/disabled?
- im not in the studio now so i cant check, but it probarly isnt noticable