Getting more for us

emzee · Post by **emzee** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:40 am

I've been watching the discussion re: new plugins/new developers etc with many of us keen to influence Creamware's direction. Creamware is a small company, supplying a niche market. But we all want more of everything. More developers...more effects...more plugins...SFP4,5,6,9,
STS10 000 etc

We're often critical and demanding, capable of providing corporate direction, refining strategy, spending R&D money......

It's critical that Creamware listen to its userbase....no question. But other than providing feedback, what can we do?

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:19 am

consume.

but everyone's bought most of what they want to buy. So, it's kinda saturated I think.

eliam · Post by **eliam** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:25 am

That'a a very good question, Mikka, which has been running around my brain, and not only about CW... But ee are a living and vibrant community and I'm sure that both CW and us users could greatly benefit from a closer relationship, an enhanced partnership. How can we achieve that and what should we expect from a real two-way discussion with the creators and developers of our favourite platform? It seems that this is already happening with a lot of developers and some CW participation on this forum, but it could be expanded greatly and the user community could be invloved much more intensely in the decision-making regarding this platform... rather than just receiving what they decide to give us. I guess that at least a part of their development resources could be invested in user-defined projects, since we are responsible (partly) for their financing... That would help CW and us at once! What do you guys think?

R-type · Post by **R-type** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:04 am

Creamware should be alright. lots of new cards are being sold, don't worry about that, piracy will always hold VST instruments down.

Noah may be a bit of a worry though, why did they bet the farm on that?

If I could change Noah I would add 13 DSPs to the base model. It should be 20 DSPs as the basic model man that would kick arse.

Lot's of current Pulsar users would buy plus any dude going into a synth store would be stunned with 2 minimax, 1 pro one and 1 oddessy all with 3 voice polyphony.

The DSPs must be cheap by now so why is creamware so tight with them?

[ This Message was edited by: R-type on 2003-11-14 05:05 ]

stw · Post by **stw** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:41 am

On 2003-11-14 05:04, R-type wrote:
Noah may be a bit of a worry though, why did they bet the farm on that?

If I could change Noah I would add 13 DSPs to the base model. It should be 20 DSPs as the basic model man that would kick arse.
[...]
The DSPs must be cheap by now so why is creamware so tight with them?

I absolute agree with that!
CW is totally commited to its outdated hardware. For me it's a mystery why they come up with an intelligent new unit based on that lo capacity hardware and due to that totally overprized IMHO. The same goes for their audio cards. Still the most flexible and intelligent concept around but a total lack of processing power. If they won't manage to upgrade to a competitive basis they're out of biz sooner or later!

Regards, Stefan

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:22 am

I disagree that the hardware is overpriced.
In fact you don't even pay much for that bunch of Sharcs.
You pay for the software, for SFP and the underlying building blocks ('atoms').

That substance was considered > 150 man years project some time ago, dunno how it's judged today, but it's an advantage over any competition.
Not even Sony or Yamaha could compete on an economic base - you cannot simply go shopping and hire a dozen or so dudes to rewrite something like that.
It would take time even for those giants.

That CW still sticks to the current hardware generation is (imho) mainly related to the recent financial problems, which have of course existed a bit longer than they were made known to us.

cheers, Tom

petal · Post by **petal** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:32 am

Don't you think it has something to do with the change of the PCI-standard?
I mean, they have to make the right decission about which bustype to base the new soundcards on. I don't know much about these new bustypes, but I know that there a a few different projects out there like, PCI-X and PCI-Express and they are just starting to hit the market now. SO untill the industry settles for a new standard, I don't think that we should expect any new soundcards from CW, which I find very understandable.

But as I said, I don't know much about this issue, but it's my best guess....

Thomas

stw · Post by **stw** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:09 am

On 2003-11-14 09:22, astroman wrote:
I disagree that the hardware is overpriced.

...not to be misunderstood. I don't "blame" CW hardware in general but NOAH. If you take a look at the -amount of voices- chart maybe you understand my point of view.
http://www.creamware.de/de/products/noa ... cspecs.asp
Why should i pay app. 1400.-€ to get a max of 12 voices out of a mid class synth and an average of SIX! voices for a plug that's worth buying NOAH? The scenario becomes worse if you look what happens if a plug takes only 1 slot which means you have exactly one other slot free for a second plug.
Just to throw in a comparison: A Nord Modular Rack costs 950.-€
...but maybe that's only my individual sense of what's reasonable and what not.

Regards, Stefan

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 11:08 am

The thing with Noah is, is that it doesn't give you much polyfony, but it does give you a lot of different soundsources with high quality. You still pay more for a real, monophonic Minimoog, not to mention if you throw in a real Pro-One etc...

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 11:12 am

On 2003-11-14 10:09, stw wrote:
Just to throw in a comparison: A Nord Modular Rack costs 950.-€

you probably know why the Nord got that price, don't you ?

it is so competetive that it doesn't even make sense to buy a used one of the previous generation...

I respect your way to judge the price, but it's the same problem as above:
NOAH is an integral part of SFP, it is still driven by the same software.
You're right that it starts rather humble, but there's always a first step. And the circumstances made this a real difficult one.

I'm still considering NOAH, though my budget doesn't allow it currently. I added the price of NOAH plugs ins, considered an estimated street price and found it reasonable, though not exactly cheap.

Well, I'm one of those who'd never play a Minimax with more than one voice and I'd rather insist on a duophonic Prodyssey - if that topic hadn't caused enough confusion yet

The voice-versus-money isn't very effective with SFP synths. Imho it would be a waste as the ear cannot detect specific details anymore if things are stacked like hell.
Nothing bad with that, but the same audible result can be achieved for less (imho).

cheers, Tom

stw · Post by **stw** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:15 pm

On 2003-11-14 11:12, astroman wrote:
On 2003-11-14 10:09, stw wrote:
Just to throw in a comparison: A Nord Modular Rack costs 950.-€
you probably know why the Nord got that price, don't you ?

no, please enlighten me

[...]
You're right that it starts rather humble, but there's always a first step. And the circumstances made this a real difficult one.

Agreed. But a potential customer isn't interested in the circumstances. He wants as much as he can get for the money.

I'm still considering NOAH, though my budget doesn't allow it currently. I added the price of NOAH plugs ins, considered an estimated street price and found it reasonable, though not exactly cheap.

I considered NOAH myself and that's why i'm somewhat disappointed.

The voice-versus-money isn't very effective with SFP synths. Imho it would be a waste as the ear cannot detect specific details anymore if things are stacked like hell.
Nothing bad with that, but the same audible result can be achieved for less (imho).

cheers, Tom

Sorry Tom but that's a "Milchmädchenrechnung". Even with a hundred sharcs onboard you can play your synths mono if you want. I won't compare NOAH with other Hardware or Semihardware Synths because there're way too much arguments one can throw in for the one or the other. BUT the point is that NOAH comes up with very promising and versatile features which could make it a top-notch unit. At the same time it is way too obvious limited by its old fashioned hardware in some very importand aspects (polyphony,multitimbrality,expandsions) which prevent people like me from buying it.
And i have the feeling that this fact will be a boomerang...though i don't hope so and have only the best wishes for CW!

Regrads, Stefan

bassdude · Post by **bassdude** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:18 pm

What old fashioned hardware? You mean the SHARC chips? If they are out dated then why are SSL using them in their new digital mixing desks? DSP chips should not be compared alongside CPU's which do get outdated very fast.

doodyrh · Post by **doodyrh** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:34 pm

On 2003-11-14 15:18, bassdude wrote:
DSP chips should not be compared alongside CPU's which do get outdated very fast.

Why not?
If CPUs are being out(up)dated very fast then they'll surely be overtaking DSP soon.

On 2003-11-14 09:22, astroman wrote:
I disagree that the hardware is overpriced.
In fact you don't even pay much for that bunch of Sharcs.
You pay for the software...

If the hardware's just a small part of the price then all the more reason to update it.

Post by **hubird** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:57 pm

to ad nothing constructive to this discussion: I almost never use more than two notes of the same synth at the same time.
polyphony would be the very last thing I would consider to let be an argument to buy an instrument

Aren't there a huge bunch of Roland and other brands on the market for the two, quatre or octo 'main' playing musicions, with thousands of sounds to play ahead?
I can't imagine people who are interested in a classic synth based instrument like Noah are looking for that rich orchestrating full hand way of playing.
But maybe I'm just proposing my own way of working, or even my own incapability of keys playing.
In fact I try to stay away from the realy playing athmosphere, coz unless you are a genious jazz player or otherwise gifted instrumentalist it leads to nothing.
It's my (very personal) conviction that the picture of the (rock'n'roll) artist who puts all his overloaded soul in his playing has been a mythe. What feelings? My love has gone,my love came back to me?
Modern art shifted from realistic painting almost a century ago, just to get closer to the point.
I'm realy glad the computer as instrument (rather than HD recorder) makes it comfortable to move away from played music.
Polyphony for me is as important as it is for every playing trumpet player

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2003-11-14 17:02 ]

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:32 pm

astroman wrote:

Well, I'm one of those who'd never play a Minimax with more than one voice and I'd rather insist on a duophonic Prodyssey - if that topic hadn't caused enough confusion yet

You referring to me

hubird wrote:

Polyphony for me is as important as it is for every playing trumpet player

A man after my own heart. Stop the polyphony obsession you chaps.

emzee · Post by **emzee** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:35 pm

Don't mean to be rude but maybe you guys should go start another thread. The point of this thread is "What can we do".....as in "what specific action" as opposed to debating Creamware's choices.

Sorry if I wasn't more specific.

valis · Post by **valis** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:50 pm

On 2003-11-14 16:34, doodyrh wrote:
If CPUs are being out(up)dated very fast then they'll surely be overtaking DSP soon.

Funny, this is the argument that I heard when I bought my Pulsar1 back in 1999 and yet I'm still quite happy with what it does today (especially since I was able to add a Pulsar2). Going from a P3-500 all the way up to dual 2ghz Xeons over the years I would have to say that these cards have scaled quite nicely for me at least.

On 2003-11-14 16:34, doodyrh wrote:
If the hardware's just a small part of the price then all the more reason to update it.

Hardware IS just a small part of the price. There's the cost of running a company, and a LOT of R&D and manufacturing up front to update hardware.

I would class myself as a 'fan' of my Pulsars and I understand that first Creamware needs to come out of the red enough to have the financing to give us next generation products. I suspect they're already working on it & have something up their sleeves, and I know that the next generation of SHARC chips are not only faster, but they fix some basic timing issues that most people aren't even aware exist in the current hardware. Something to think about when talking about Noah, is that its development was most likely impacted by Creamware's financial situation and I suspect they had (and still have) a lot more intended for it, it would be very interesting to see how that solution scales over the next few years too.

Compare SFP/Noah to traditional synths you find it comes up lacking polyphony. SFP by being so much more flexible isn't easily compared to dedicated synth architectures either which focus on just delivering voices with a fixed architecture & a few insert/master effects. However by being flexible I can focus on exactly the sounds/fx processing/routing I want in SFP & leave the polyphony power to dedicated hardware units if realtime keyboard performance is important for the task at hand. Now, compare NOAH to the VariOS or Chameleon and you'll find the polyphony isn't drastically off what they offer, nor is the number of effects/routing options you have available.

I think it would pay to compare prices to other dsp solutions. Compare Noah to VariOS and Chameleon....and our dsp cards to UAD-1, TC Powercore & etc. UAD-1 has no i/o nor synthesis options, though it has nice effects so while it costs less than the Pulsar2's cost its also 1/3 the options/power. The powercore does have synthesis but again no i/o and it is very comparable to the cost of a Pulsar2 in almost all markets that I"m aware of.

Now, compare the cost of Cubase/Sonar/Logic + a PowerPulsar with Pro Tools|HD 1 sometime...I think you'll find you can afford to add all 3 15 dsp cards and a major sequencer for LESS than the cost of ProTools|HD 1 and I suspect that it will compare favorably in situations where having ProTools software session files isn't absolutely necessary.

DO I want more? Yes of course! And I'm all for healthy discussion and looking forward to new technology from Creamware, but a lot of the criticism about the Creamware solutions seems to be just as negative as those who evangelize the platform and pretend there aren't issues with it to work around. If Creamware cards aren't the right solution for you, fine. Want sheer poly? Add a synth or two & an adat to your studio! (Or run pulsar into a mixer alongside etc). Want the flexibility of software? Well software runs alongside SFP! If you can only afford ONE solution, then a pc & software is probably your best option. If you are on a budget and have the patience to acquire 'tools' over time for your studio, I personally feel that a Creamware card is a great addition to a small/medium/&large studio because it offers us very useful 'tools' and it works very well alongside most other studio 'tools' in use today.

Now finally, if there's one thing I would appreciate on SFP it would be something other than VA synthesis. While I think their crop of VA is great & there's a market for it for sure, having synthesis that makes SFP unique (and noah perhaps) like Modular3+Flexor is what will truly make the platform shine in its own right and not just based in its routing flexibility & voicing/aliasing quality compared to softsynths.

emzee · Post by **emzee** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:06 pm

If you have a view on Creamware choices, go see Announcements.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:25 pm

On 2003-11-14 17:35, Mikka wrote:
Don't mean to be rude but maybe you guys should go start another thread. The point of this thread is "What can we do".....as in "what specific action" as opposed to debating Creamware's choices.

I think it's drifted a little bit, but is still on the topic - though more between the lines.
One point WE can do is to see the products as what they are and how much value they offer. One gets used to SFP rather quickly and almost forgets how exiting a unit like NOAH can be for someone who has no experience at all with CW boards.
Prophet VS, ProOne, Odyssee, MiniMoog and B3 emulation in one unit IS a competetive package, if presented properly.

Obviously the biggest problem seems to be to get the right demo tracks.
But I'd be very careful: what sells best is not necessarily the 'best' quality stuff around - I have some drastic experiences in this direction from my job

ot @Hubird's poly statement: my hero is Etienne de Crécy, who once said '... I'm proud to be able to play the keyboard with one finger..'

cheers, Tom

John Cooper · Post by **John Cooper** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:41 pm

On 2003-11-14 18:06, Mikka wrote:
If you have a view on Creamware choices, go see Announcements.

Let's keep the announcements forum for announcements. I'll move the new topic over into general discussion.

-John