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nothing more can be said here that would not fly in the face of futility . . .

ADIOS

From now on I will ignore lifechanger totally, as a personnel protest against his style and political attitude.
Peace.

Following from Nestor's post there's a good quote from Churchill which I think is relevant - it runs something like this:

"In war the truth is so important it must be protected by a bodyguard of lies."

Thank you. I knew that one would bend your buckets. With the exception of "Ohio Boy", you other opinionated Geeks, withdrew from political/world commentary very quickly, as did the capitulation ingrained in your, shall I say, DNA. Just do a search on Google for Nazi/War/Collusion/Belgium/Netherlands, and you'll see what I mean.

You young cats may be "the meow" when it come to music, but when it come to confrontation with evil, IMHO, you don't do Jack Shit! So Who cares how you feel about my posts....diametrically opposed to YOUR positions, as they are???

You young cats may be "the meow" when it come to music, but when it come to confrontation with evil,

May be the Pope can help ypu... or any kind of god... or psicologyst...

Lifechanger?

Maybe all the people who want a war should get a boat to the antartic.. there you can all blow the fuck out of each other, and leave the peace lovers, wonen children e.t.c in PEACE...

Most people are good natured and don't want to hurt anyone, but there are politians who are pure evil, George is one, Sadam another. Some folks just want to live their lives in peace but the leaders of the world won't let them. It's pretty easy for presidents and dictators to give a command. I noticed that the politicians, kings and despots usually don't do battle themselves. They would rather send other people out to kill or be killed. Nationalism and religion are very bad for the world. If everyone was an atheist like I am there would be no more wars because there would be nothing to fight over that's worth dying for.

I’m surprised about the violence of your comments lifechanger, particularly when I have not said anything directly to you, nor aggress you in any way.

The purpose of this open thread is not to go into a war of words helping the whole bad situation; I will not go into this! My only concern was to share with Z friends what is going on in the world.

RESPECT is the basic rule of any good forum and this is a very good one, no need to become violent at all. We all have the chance to give our opinion and this is not an offence, but please, do not start another war in here, there are enough of them all around the world!

Braincell, often these days people say that if politicians and generals had to do the fighting then things would be different. But in most wars until the late middle ages (and sometimes into the 20th century), most leaders, generals and kings DID fight at the front of their troops. So I don't think this is a significant factor. Maybe we'd have leaders of greater personal bravery, but not different in outlook methinks. And George Bush is "pure evil" ? Don't think so. Not even Hitler was "pure evil" - reserve that tag for some extra-dimensional non-human malign essence .

And Lifechanger, I'm still very interested to know your perspective on my earlier questions about why these politicians are so keen to risk their future on an unpopular war. Do you believe that it is in simple pursuit of evil ? If so then what's changed in Iraq lately that makes this war so imperative ? Blair's case for an attack looked a bit weak to me.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Spirit on 2002-09-30 05:30 ]</font>

And people keep asking 'why can't we be told that Saddam has nukes, if he does ?' - as if this would justify a war with him.

Well it doesn't !

The list of countries with nukes is very long, and there are countries with far more capabilities to destroy the planet (UK and USA come quite high on the list).

Lifechanger has been sucked into the fervour of racism that's being kicked up just so as to get people behind a war . . . so I'm afraid he is the most ignorant and weak of us all.

In terms of 3,000 people dying, I will list some more:

150,000 civilians dead in London 1940-1944
150,000 civilians dead in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, 1946.
150,000 civilians dead in Dresden, on ONE NIGHT in 1944.
Thousands of Argentinians dead in the Falklands war
Far more than 3,000 Afghan civilians dead since 9/11 (or don't these count, Lifechanger, an answer will finally allow us to decide whether you are no more than an ignorant racist biggot)

One other thing I would like to say: and that is that for purely pragmatic reasons a war on Iraq is incredibly stupid. You don't put out a fire like that which is burning in the middle east by stamping on it. You have to douse it, or you will only spread it.

The UK treated the fight against terrorism in Northern Ireland as a war for many years. Which just created more pain, more terrorism, more anger and more ignorance. You will notice that therre is far less violence in that region now. This correlates with the dismantling of British military fortresses in the area and a return to the discussion table.

The only thing that gets quelled in war is the egos of those who consider themselves to be powerful, and that only until their exercise of power backfires, precisely because by making other people feel impotent, you make them violent.

And no - nothing has changed recently in Iraq. It has been fascinating following the change in the coverage of the western press and politicians though !

You're right Nestor; no need to have an additional war in words!

Can you *all* please try to leave insulting comments and prejudices out of your messages? Some of those might not be obvious for the pasionate and angry writer at the heated moment of typing, but I've seen lots of them, from both 'parties', during this thread...
I personally think it's actually fun to read views opposed to mine, but I can imagine it's hard to stay objective when reading the suggestion that you might have those inferior Dutch capitulation-genes in your DNA, or that you are an ignorant racist biggot

btw check tarjim.ajeeb.com for a pretty usuable arab-2-english translation service, allowing us to read online arab newspapers and media pages.
[edit]I just notice this service apparently turns into a paid service oct 1.... too bad[/edit]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ernest@303.nu on 2002-09-30 07:24 ]</font>

why these politicians are so keen to risk their future on an unpopular war

Latest CBS polls have flipped on the matters of War vs socialist's concerns...Most think Sadamm must be removed before one of his terrorists visits a bomb on one of our big cities.

As far as "middle America", plus a large portion of swing voters, support President Bush....65%...as our leader. It's clear that he grabbed the "message" of all you who hate the USA and what it stands for...free enterprise and capitalism...vs your homegrown versions of "state-run" socieites.

When your own individual cultures are ramsacked and dispersed, when your kids start wearing tents and spouting the Krap in the Koran....then you might just put down your "flowers of peace and understanding" and pick up a gun....but it will be too late.

And we're not talkin' guns in this "theater" of the War On Terror...we talkin WMD's, my friend....on innocent freedom-loving Americans.

Nope....the polls got it right. The majority are pissed and approve of GWB!

When we see these young, hippy-dippy college students and their professors runnin' around the Anti-War Maypole...well, it's a laugh...

Someday, your pedigree pasts will be but a faint memory..and you'll all be wearin' towels on yo heads.

Not to seem flip lifechanger but isn't middle america the land of the inbreds?

Duh...inbred...not since the Indians, Mexicans, Arabs, Black have been "trucked in" by thousands to integrate our "suburbs" via Welfare support...giving them our tax dollars for a free ride into the American brand of Socialism.

Not inbred....just stupid to follow your leads...of course, it is a pretty cushy ride for the "have nots" that stream to our shores and borders.

it's very simple.george is a nephew to the queen of england.george's first company's funding came from the bin-laden family,the owners of the largest construction co in the world and the builders of the afghan cave fortresses used by bin-laden.bin-laden,hussien,islamic jihad and hezbollah's (not to mention al-queda) funding comes thru cia channels(admitted by the cia a long time ago,and proudly) and with often with u.s. allie saudi arabia's direct assisstance. for 400years while reading and writing was punishable by death in europe by order of rome,islam florished because of reading and writing.this also was in colusion with rome. it was convienient to have one entity to deal with while europe was being reeducated thru these 400years of forced ignorance.

history lesson continues later......

On 2002-09-30 12:14, lifechanger wrote:
Duh...inbred...not since the Indians, Mexicans, Arabs, Black have been "trucked in" by thousands to integrate our "suburbs" via Welfare support...giving them our tax dollars for a free ride into the American brand of Socialism.

Not inbred....just stupid to follow your leads...of course, it is a pretty cushy ride for the "have nots" that stream to our shores and borders.

Having read earnests post I was going to apologize for using the phrase 'racist ignorant biggot' but . . .

(you'll note that it was used conditionally - on this sort of utterly unjustifiable racist ignorant biggotry)

I might also add to Garyb's history lesson to tell the following story . . .

When the Crusaders entered Jerusalem (around 11C but I'm awful at dates . . .) they slaughtered just about every living thing in the town.

When the arabs re-conquered it, they proposed that anyone who was prepared to accept their rule could stay, and practice their religion in peace, but those that wouldn't could leave in peace.

Nice that, wasn't it !

As far as "middle America", plus a large portion of swing voters, support President Bush....65%...as our leader. It's clear that he grabbed the "message" of all you who hate the USA and what it stands for...free enterprise and capitalism...vs your homegrown versions of "state-run" socieites.


****That German lady was correct when she mentioned *bush* was like Hitler he is, as Hitler said your either with me or against me ....
And the whole US bullshit statement about how the wrong German was elected (RUBBISH) the one who said he would _not_ go to war was elected...
I have friends in Germany that say this was THE deciding factor..

I don't have anything against the man himself(BUSH) just his tactics and the fact he can't finish 1 war before starting another...

I doubt your american brothers will keep him in office for another term ( only way he could pull that one off is if your still in war with the world)

>Latest CBS polls have flipped on the matters of War vs socialist's concerns...Most think Sadamm must be removed before one of his terrorists visits a bomb on one of our big cities.

Terrorism has been around the world for ages it wasn't untill it hit the USA that all stink was raised.

Didn't CNN also do a gallop poll to see who felt bad for Americans on sept 11 and then went to RUSSIA to ask such a question ( Give me a break, who was the brain behind that one!!)


>>>Lifechanger has been sucked into the fervour of racism that's being kicked up just so as to get people behind a war . . . so I'm afraid he is the most ignorant and weak of us all.


so true for so many ...

I really dislike when somebody “puts words into my mouth I’ve never pronounced”, I do not hate America! Nor any other country or place in the world!

I love America and have many American friends all around the world! I have even shared my living with a group of American musicians in France for “6 months” in the same house and my experience was fantastic! I have as well lived with Hindu people enjoying a very nice sharing! I have learned English with Moslem people from different countries of the world; again, my experience has ben great as human experience! I deeply LOVE Asiatic people, I have plenty of Chinese friends! I have many good friends for life in France, Belgium, Spain, U.S, Argentina, Chile, India, China, Japan, etc., and they all are lovable human beings, OPEN MINDED! Sufficiently intelligent to understand we all are part of a SINGLE FAMILY that is called MANKIND!


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: nestor on 2002-09-30 16:10 ]</font>

BTW, I now am sharing my living with some superb friends from Germany, Holland and Austria… it couldn’t be better, and we never thing: “ho, you are from here and you from there, and you from over there… we just share and enjoy life together!” Our cultural differences are respected and we all make fun of each other.

For some people this may sound as ignorance or as something childish, cos it is too simple… but remember that the deepest thoughts and the innermost sense of life is in fact, very simple. And all the “LORDS” of the arth with all their complicated jargon, have never given us a solition but the stupid WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: nestor on 2002-09-30 16:21 ]</font>