PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

and you can still get keys.
if i could know and tell you all about it, i would. nothing can be said right now, everything you hear and think about it is conjecture. you won't get better for the moment, sorry. i'm not saying that there's no chance of disaster, just that disaster is not a forgone conclusion, and far from it at the moment.

reflex wrote:It's rather strange that the general response to CW filing for creditor protection for the second time is merely, "Oh, it's a minor issue." It certainly isn't a minor issue. It's a sign of a major problem: Their cash flow is not sufficient to meet their obligations.

Barring a miracle, the writing's on the wall:

1. Their Scope lineup is not compatible with Windows Vista. This will quickly become a critical issue now that most vendors have started shipping hardware with the new OS - a hardware company that doesn't support Microsoft's latest incarnation will be dead in the water (please don't bother flaming me: I'm no MS fan either, but someone has to stand up and state the bloody obvious).

Wrong. It will work in 32bit Vista albeit with perhaps some reduced functionality when you stray outside of the production world (protected content?). As for 64bit Vista, certainly it wouldn't make sense for a company with limited resources to develop future compatibility for legacy products.

reflex wrote:2. Their new hardware line is about a decade too late. The world has by and large switched to computer-based systems. The key marketing problem they face is that very few users will purchase more than one ASB unit - each new unit will be met by diminishing sales, because only a very few wealthy (or obsessed) Creamware fans will pony up for a Minimax, Pro-12, Prodyssey, and a B4000. Most likely, people will pick and choose a single unit..

Hardware sales still have enough volume that the major 3 from Japan seem to continiously recycle their technology into larger & smaller packages each new product year. Waldorf has new hardware out with a vengance, smaller vendors like Novation are doing interesting things on the affordable side of the game. The Dave Smith collection seems to be expanding, Access is still pushing units like hotcakes, and finally even the semi-botique ANALOG modular market seems to be expanding and is even joined by Buchla's upmarket stuff. Also you're making the assumption (imo) that all potential buyers are overly discerning extremely well informed daily readers of every gear rag and website out there, and that this theoretical market is indeed 'fixed' in size. I don't think I would agree with that assumption...

reflex wrote:3. There are no new Scope cards on the horizon, and I suspect that the vast majority of sales have been ASB boxes since the company resumed operation in 2004. This puts loyal Scope/Pulsarians in a funny spot -- I have a 3 card setup and don't need an ASB, so the only purchase I've made from Creamware in the past few years has been a software upgrade. I suspect many are in the same boat.

Are you american? In the US there is close to no visible profile for Scope cards, unless you happen to be an SoS reader (several of their reviewers use them). Scope cards are fairly well known in Europe and further south. Also again you're assuming here that the market of Creamware users is fixed and that different products would only appeal to this theoretical fixed market cap. ASB units might indeed be appealing to people that would have little to no use for the Scope cards in the same application. I don't need an ASB either btw, but one of my close friends here produces using mostly tabletop units that he can take out live. He's perfectly happy with his ASB, although since we're in the US I did have to do some of Creamware's marketing for them on that sale. Now there's a point you could perhaps pick at if u were looking for ways to improve Creamware's sales.

reflex wrote:Now, rather than burying our collective heads in the sand, I think it would be smart to contact Creamware to make arrangements to ensure that a third-party is entrusted with the ability to transfer ownership of product keys. In fact, it would be smart to come to an agreement that the software will be released into the public domain should the company cease operations permanently. If we fail to take these steps, we may well get badly burnt.

I don't get it, what you're saying is that you would like to have Creamware facilitate aftermarket reselling of its software after they have passed? I can see why a user would want that but I don't see a great reason for Creamware to do that, unless it's to generate goodwill while shooting themselves in the foot. Also, unlike the software industry, most of the DSP platforms remain largely uncracked. I think that asking a company to setup releasing its intellectual property into the public domain is a rather tall order. Outside of someone in the company having a favorable stance of open source and setting these things up Before going into bankruptcy, there's little chance that the most valued assets of any technology company would simply be let go of. If you're worried that you might not be able to come by interesting plugins for your Scope cards on creamware's passing, keep in mind there's a lot of sdk users here now and check the devices forum sometime.

Lastly if people are wondering why the people who 'seem to know' something aren't saying anything, perhaps it's because they know it's not their place to say. Creamware can't really say much atm, because they're most likely doing all they can to make the courts happy and keep things running. The situation they're in is based on a lot of outstanding debt affecting their bottom line, so they need to find a way to resolve enough of that to emerge from bankruptcy without being dissolved for their assets by the courts. I'm at least assuming that's the way things go in Germany, since that's what happens in the US. In theory Bankruptcy exists both as a protection for creditors as well as a service to shareholders & debtors. It keeps the guys with the leg-breaking bats away to hopefully let you address their concerns and resume business.

In the worst case scenario, the company does indeed completely shut down, its assets would be sold or transferred to another entity. Usually, an owner that cares enough about their business will try to influence this so that their hard work will at least land in hands that will care for it. If some large auto manufacturer were to gain control over the Scope code then things might be bad, but consider that Waldorf is again back & making a go of things. Even Moog got his rights back in the long run...

Lastly, why are you so intent on criticizing Creamware anyway? If you've invested into 3 dsp cards then certainly there is something that that has worked for you as it was sold to you. If you have issues that relate to support of your current platform (surely most of us have that) then voicing the concerns directly might help us build a list of things that Creamware could address, assuming things go well here in the next few months. However what I see is one or two concerns framed in a very critical analysis of Creamware as a whole, all of their past misdeeds and conjectured future misdeeds. I'm sure the guys over at CW have a much clearer idea of where things have gone wrong and what they've done right over the years, and they have as clear a picture as anyone can on what they can do to move forward from here.

I think what we have is silence from Creamware causing the usual hysteria. Not a surprise to me (I even casually mentioned elsewhere on Z they might want to consider this) but really all the critique you can level at them from your forum posting makes for nothing but a case of attempted trolling with a sour sense of humor. Lighten up

things are not always as what they look like...

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:28 pm

Brazda lui Novac wrote:Hi!
I'm looking to buy a 15DSP Scope card. If it's a nice price, I might even buy two cards if possible. Pay on delivery.
Cheers!
Victor

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:23 pm

reflex wrote:

On 2006-04-18 09:53, Brazda lui Novac wrote:
On what base are you making me a thief? Don't you think you're a bit over reacting without knowing a thing about me?

Why I think you're a thief:

1. Anonymous email address
2. New board member
3. Wants to buy extremely expensive gear internationally, cash on delivery.
4. You're protesting about being called a thief, when no one did any such thing. 8-bit just alerted people to the potential for rip-offs.

Posted: 22 Nov 2006 11:55 My first gig in London

...not to forget it's hard for companies of CWA's size if everyone buys 2nd hand...
I also think that there's few to 'discuss' for anyone not involved directly with the details, and those who are, usually have to obeye to business agreements and keep their opinion private.

cheers, Tom

hifiboom wrote:

scope4live wrote:I am putting together an old P4 DAW 4 my son, he wants to be a Pulsarian. 2 x Lunas, w/ a 6 DSP SRB. A better start than I had. I hope you guys will put up w/ him as he is only 11 years old. But much more mature than his father, who suffers from immaturity. I just love my uncomplicated P4 DAW w. GS3. It runs like a cappucino machine.

hey,
your son is close to have a better scope setup than me....

ya he has 12dsp at the age of 11. and im 38 and got only 6dsp

i'm happy with my 45 dsp's and the age of 30

except i've to disable the onboard ethernet while doing serious recording and mixing stuff, else it freezes from time to time due to irq conflicts...

cheers
Roman

I paid 800 USD for his Playstation 3, and roughly 50 USD per game. So Scope seems to be a better bargain. Besides, if he doesn't like it, which IMHO is impossible, I will definately find a use for it. My X-wife says she thinks I'm spoiling him. She's just got a stick broken off up her butt because I use to spoil her. My future X-wife agrees.

Strength And Honor,

to scope4live:

very good move;
your sons creativity will explode;
--
one year to teach you?? NO!
the kids are very very fast with learning;
you have DP i red somewhere; so i guess in 3 months hes releasing his first plugins;
--
wellcome to our new pulsarian

good vibes from vienna

astroman wrote: ...not to forget it's hard for companies of CWA's size if everyone buys 2nd hand...

well, I like the fact that there is a second hand market. I probably wouldn't have bought a card if there wasn't a tempting offer that encouraged me to start experiencing the scope platform for a 100 bucks.

I also think that there's few to 'discuss' for anyone not involved directly with the details, and those who are, usually have to obeye to business agreements and keep their opinion private.

I'm just a bit tired of that "I know things you don't know but I had to kill you if I told ya" postings, nothing else...

at least I can say that they never stopped responding to my inquiries, and, believe me, ralf is as quick as ever.

-greetings, markus-

[quote="valis"
Wrong. It will work in 32bit Vista albeit with perhaps some reduced functionality when you stray outside of the production world (protected content?). As for 64bit Vista, certainly it wouldn't make sense for a company with limited resources to develop future compatibility for legacy products.

quote]

Perhaps you can enlighten us on how to get the ASIO I/O's funtional.

Last I heard, performance was beyond dismal as well because you had to run in compatibilty mode. Is this not the truth? Have you found a way around this?

CH

one general question: why does one need vista? for the wow-effect? i get the wow effect when listening to good music but for shure not when running a new marketing gag from micro$oft...

katano wrote:one general question: why does one need vista?

obsolete question. why does a car need an automatic "one-tip-three-blinks" indicator switch, or the momentary petrol consumption display? you can surely go without that eyecandy, but sooner or later you won't be able to avoid it (unless getting yourself an oldtimer).

face it, you're living for the moment
tomorrow will be different. with or without your participation.

-greetings, markus-

kylie, your comparison doesn't work, because your "one-tip-three-blinks"
indicator switch doesn't force you to upgrade your seat heater and ac
but i should have asked: why does one need vista now

but indeed, sooner or later is the point, and later works better for me, at
least concerning microsoft products... and vista is definitively no need on a daw for the moment...

we're ot btw

cheers
Roman

kylie wrote:...I'm just a bit tired of that "I know things you don't know but I had to kill you if I told ya" postings, nothing else...

and who do you think is tired of the unqualified blurb by some self-elected experts ???

valis wrote:Lastly, why are you so intent on criticizing Creamware anyway? If you've invested into 3 dsp cards then certainly there is something that that has worked for you as it was sold to you.

I'm not criticizing Creamware at all. I'm as interested as everyone else here in seeing the company succeed. It seems that there's a certain amount of group-think going on, and that's why I wrote. I love my CW boards, but I'm deeply concerned about the company's future.

Insolvency protection is usually only requested when either (a) a company cannot pay its bills, or (b) the shareholders are trying to reduce their exposure to potential debt/legal action that may result from the company's operations.

People are right that it's a complex issue. They are also correct that a company can continue day-to-day operations during restructuring. I also expect that the reason for CW's silence is that they don't yet know 100% what the future will bring.

valis wrote:Wrong. It will work in 32bit Vista albeit with perhaps some reduced functionality ... it wouldn't make sense for a company with limited resources to develop future compatibility for legacy products.

Yes, many features work under 32 bit Vista, but there's no official release or support. I agree that it's expensive supporting legacy products, but this seems to be an indication that the current hardware has reached the end of the line. Let's hope they have a fantastic new board waiting in the wings.

Hardware sales still have enough volume... Also you're making the assumption (imo) that all potential buyers are overly discerning extremely well informed daily readers of every gear rag and website out there, and that this theoretical market is indeed 'fixed' in size. I don't think I would agree with that assumption...

The hardware market is much smaller now than it was in the heydays of the 1980s and 1990s because of the introduction of viable software synthesis (and products like Pulsar/Scope). Korg, Roland and Yamaha are large and diversified companies. Many others failed: Sequential Circuits, Moog, E-mu (no longer sells hardware synths/samplers), Quasimidi, the original Waldorf and Ensoniq, to name a few.

The remaining players have the advantage of relatively massive R&D budgets. If one of their product lines fails to live up to expectations, the company will continue.

Things are trickier for a smaller company, although there are certain benefits to being a small boutique manufacturer. Dave Smith comes to mind here. His products sell for premium prices and the operation is small enough to assure that it doesn't overextend itself. Same can be said for Moog, more or less. Unfortunately, Creamware doesn't have the same brand cachet.

reflex wrote:3. There are no new Scope cards on the horizon, and I suspect that the vast majority of sales have been ASB boxes since the company resumed operation in 2004. .

Are you american? In the US there is close to no visible profile for Scope cards, unless you happen to be an SoS reader (several of their reviewers use them). Scope cards are fairly well known in Europe and further south. Also again you're assuming here that the market of Creamware users is fixed and that different products would only appeal to this theoretical fixed market cap. ASB units might indeed be appealing to people that would have little to no use for the Scope cards in the same application. I don't need an ASB either btw, but one of my close friends here produces using mostly tabletop units that he can take out live.

No, I'm not American. The market for Scope cards is limited because there have been no major hardware revisions for some time. This has resulted in a booming market for used cards, often at a fraction of the cost of buying new. As you mentioned earlier, Scope/Pulsar are fast becoming legacy hardware.

I gladly shelled out my €'s for the Scope 4.5 upgrade, but I'd much rather shell out €€€ for a much more powerful new Scope card. Creamware would make more money, and I'd have a more powerful creative environment.

As for the ASB boxes, I stand by my appraisal that only a small percentage of users will buy more than one. And, sadly, the market is not unlimited - few people buy hardware that costs as much as a laptop these days. That means that Creamware cannot continue to sustain itself by releasing a new ASB box every 6-12 months. Sales just wouldn't be high enough. Who knows, perhaps they have a very cool "generic" tabletop synth on the drawingboard. Or perhaps an fx device. Or a rhythm machine. That would be fantastic.

reflex wrote:Now, rather than burying our collective heads in the sand, I think it would be smart to contact Creamware to make arrangements to ensure that a third-party is entrusted with the ability to transfer ownership of product keys.

I don't get it, what you're saying is that you would like to have Creamware facilitate aftermarket reselling of its software after they have passed?

Maybe I wasn't clear. In order of preference:

1. I'd like to see Creamware (or its eventual successor) continue to market Scope plugins and facilitate ownership transfers for a reasonable fee.

2. If Creamware eventually winds up business, I would like to see Creamware appoint another company (perhaps only a one man operation) that has the rights to transfer ownership and perhaps sell Creamware plugins. This would protect the intellectual property and avoid releasing IP into the public domain.

3. Should Creamware cease trading and be unable (or unwilling) to appoint a third party to facilitate ownership transfers and plugin sales, it would be a nice gesture to release the plugs into the public domain. I see this only as a last resort.

You didn't read me very well

If Creamware does *truly* go bust with no way to tranfer ownership to a party they trust, they will not have the option of releasing their IP into the public domain, because at that point it will be entirely up to whoever handles the insolvency. I doubt that the majistrate or whoever will address your concerns over that of the whoever is owed money.

And I don't dispute that the hardware market and/or ASB market is limited, just that it is not limited to who you suggested it was (ie, ASB boxes are not targeted solely at the existing Creamware userbase).

Also keep in mind that Frank has now released news about InDSP, where the ASB development was done and hinted that there are further developments coming from there. Whether these see daylight through Creamware or through another entity (InDSP directly?) remains to be seen, but the IP is in use by developers somewhere. The situation with Creamware is a total unknown at this point, since surely things have changed from where they were when news broke about their new insolvency.

As for facilitating the transfer of licensing, if Creamware goes bust the existing keys for a given card will still work as long as the card is functional and used on a win2k/XP based machine (or OS9 of course). I'm sure that 3rd party developers would lose commercial interest in the platform, and so you wouid be left with the enthusiests here using the sdk releasing free plugins. That is just how it is...but I suspect that either CW or InDSP or both will survive.

And lastly, I don't think anyone disputes that Creamware's hardware is reaching the end of its life as a marketable hardware product. PCI slots are disappearing and the OS's are moving on. However your existing cards can easily be put into an older machine when you buy your new PCIe using wizz-bang Vista box. If you don't want more than a single machine in the studio that's your choice. And plenty of people have suggested that in the long term there will likely be more coming, but as of now Creamware & InDSP have said all they can, and so the rest of us abide.

valis wrote:You didn't read me very well

If Creamware does *truly* go bust with no way to tranfer ownership to a party they trust, they will not have the option of releasing their IP into the public domain, because at that point it will be entirely up to whoever handles the insolvency.

All points well taken. Thanks for the crystal clear response.

I'm intrigued by what InDSP/Creamware has up their sleeves. I guess we just have to wait until the Musikmesse at the end of March. Come to think of it, John Bowen has also hinted about a major product announcement in March.

Hmm.

I respect and understand the anxiety shown in this thread. But Creamware and its representatives would be legally bound from discussing many issues at present. And regarding the future, they would be naive to let competitors know their plans.

Let's make music and let things unfold elsewhere.

.......and most of the speculation is not based on fact.