PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Follow your instincts.

My instincts tell me that you know you can't defend your position because you know it is wrong, and so you are resorting to nonsensical statements.

It does not matter what you "believe", nothing is a fact unless you can prove it. Here is what wikipedia says:

A fact is a truth[1], something that is the case, or that which can be verified according to an established standard of evaluation.

piddi wrote:i like how everybody thinks everybody else should have the same mindset, regardless of where he is geographically set.

culture shouldnt apply, neither tradition. just pure fact.

and i believe that is a fact.

the evil commie athiests mentioned, yes, Stalin killed a lot of people. But this was not because he was an athiest. It was because he was a totallitarian. It just so happened he was an athiest. Lack of religion wasnt the reason to kill
Compare this to, say, the crusaders, they killed purely because of religion.
There is a difference.

Not really. First of all, you left out the part about communist china commiting the atrocities against Budhist monks in mongolia.

Second, in the late 1920's the clergy in the Russian orthodox church as well as many of the followers were rounded up and sent to labor camps or simply shot.
You dont have to look too far to find examples of atrocities by atheists specifically against the religous as part of an anti-religous campaign.

Third, it is extremely simplistic to say that religon was the only reason for the crusades.
The crusades began for the same reason pretty much all wars began. power and conquest.

THe first crusades began becuase the seljuk turks invaded the Byzantine empire. The emperor knew he was going to have his ass handed to him in short order, so asked the pope to help out.
I can't recall off hand the Popes motivation for assisting the Emperor, but really what it boils down to is he needed a way to convnce people who would not otherwise care about the Byzantine empire to go lend a hand, so he used religion.
But it wouldn't have started in the first place without the initial invasions by the turks.

Actually after a while the governments got rather pissed off with the crusaders because they started getting way too rich and powerful for their liking.

I think you are talking about the Templars, more than the more generalized "crusaders" (not all crusaders were templars) but I do agree with the rest of your statement.

manfriday wrote:

the evil commie athiests mentioned, yes, Stalin killed a lot of people. But this was not because he was an athiest. It was because he was a totallitarian. It just so happened he was an athiest. Lack of religion wasnt the reason to kill
Compare this to, say, the crusaders, they killed purely because of religion.
There is a difference.

Not really. First of all, you left out the part about communist china commiting the atrocities against Budhist monks in mongolia.

Second, in the late 1920's the clergy in the Russian orthodox church as well as many of the followers were rounded up and sent to labor camps or simply shot.
You dont have to look too far to find examples of atrocities by atheists specifically against the religous as part of an anti-religous campaign.

Third, it is extremely simplistic to say that religon was the only reason for the crusades.
The crusades began for the same reason pretty much all wars began. power and conquest.

THe first crusades began becuase the seljuk turks invaded the Byzantine empire. The emperor knew he was going to have his ass handed to him in short order, so asked the pope to help out.
I can't recall off hand the Popes motivation for assisting the Emperor, but really what it boils down to is he needed a way to convnce people who would not otherwise care about the Byzantine empire to go lend a hand, so he used religion.
But it wouldn't have started in the first place without the initial invasions by the turks.

Wiki wrote:
(Totalitarianism).... is the attempt to mobilize entire populations in support of the official state ideology, and the intolerance of activities which are not directed towards the goals of the state, entailing repression or state control of business, labour unions, churches or political parties. Totalitarian regimes or movements maintain themselves in political power by means of secret police, propaganda disseminated through the state-controlled mass media, personality cult, regulation and restriction of free discussion and criticism, single-party state, the use of mass surveillance, and widespread use of terror tactics

Please make a distinction between atheism and communism.

Regarding China, ask yourself who is the Most Favored Nation and why are you typing on a keyboard made in China.

United States has american soldiers in Iraq. Do you believe that they believe in God? If you do, tell me please what is your interpretation of "Thou shall not kill".

piddi wrote:i like how everybody thinks everybody else should have the same mindset, regardless of where he is geographically set.

culture shouldnt apply, neither tradition. just pure fact.

and i believe that is a fact.

I agree.

Please make a distinction between atheism and communism.

Regarding China, ask yourself who is the Most Favored Nation and why are you typing on a keyboard made in China.

United States has american soldiers in Iraq. Do you believe that they believe in God? If you do, tell me please what is your interpretation of "Thou shall not kill".

Since I can see you like Wikipedia so much...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent.

I'm sorry for that and for asking you those questions.
I do love Wiki, good catch.

Why do you need a reason for living? It is confusing to me that people need god to justify why they should exist.

darkrezin wrote:[
Spiritual teachings are complex and sometimes self-contradictory for a very good reason. Life is a complex existence, and the reason for living is to unravel the mysteries yourself. If the answers were handed to you on a convenient platter, there would be nothing to live for.

how can killing yourself or having other kill themselves be rational? errr, well, actually many of the things that are thought of as rational are actually killing us.....

i'll take irrationality over death. especially rationality that hates religion for proclaiming death for those who disagree and then suggests death as a reponse for disagreeing....

Me$$iah wrote:

garyb wrote:who says god has to meet your standard of logic?

So can we agree that an 'omni'god is illogical

its the old burrito question again.



Also:
the evil commie athiests mentioned, yes, Stalin killed a lot of people. But this was not because he was an athiest. It was because he was a totallitarian. It just so happened he was an athiest. Lack of religion wasnt the reason to kill
Compare this to, say, the crusaders, they killed purely because of religion.
There is a difference.

as you know, a true satanist denies god, the devil, all of it, because he worships will and the self. so, those loving blood sacrifice sacrifice soldiers and civilians for the greater good, that is, for the supreme will and self which is most actualized. religion and philosophy are simply tools to that end. that's why the same side promotes communism, capitalism, religion and atheism. divide and rule.....order out of chaos......

also, no, i don't agree that such a god is illogical. i say that you can't comrehend it. an 'omni" god would be the only one worthy of the title. all others are limited pretenders.....logic says that if there is a god, he must be all transcendant, "omni".

There is a purpose to atheism and that is to understand reality. Atheists don't need god to explain things or to give them a reason to live. There are plenty of wonderful things without god. I'm sorry if your life is so empty that you need to make up a god in order to enjoy it.

There has been a strong push to spread Christianity through their schools, and missionaries. I think it's a shame they wiped out native religions in Africa. What they did and are still doing there should be a crime. No nation ought be able to push it's religion on another.

My grandparents were missionaries in Africa. They caught tuberculosis and died when she was 5 years old. Her 2 brothers also were children. Speaking no english, the 3 of them were sent to live in The United States with an aunt.

Atheists need to be more organized, maybe even bribe children the way christians do. You are thinking I am making this up but it is true. I know of a chinese family who came here speaking little english. The christians offered to teach their daughter english and watch over her for free after school while the parents worked. The family was not christian. Well guess what? The daughter is now a christian. This is what I call evil. The parents were innocent and naive. The church fooled them about their real motive. The only reason they help anyone is because they want to convert them.

I am proud to be an Atheist for two reasons: The first is that superstition is not reality and the second reason is that organized religion has done a lot of harm in the world and it divides people. People should have power, not the church because their motive is to "save" people so that they can have more members, more money and more power to force their will on others.

This is not paranoid thinking. Look at history. Look at what is still going on. Thousands of people hitting the streets door to door with bibles in every nation.

Bush has a vision of armageddon. He thinks he is doing god's will. Of all the candidates for president; you can be damn sure that each and every one of them will be a christian.

darkrezin wrote: No argument with the communism thing, but regarding the crusaders - big assumption here, sorry. Crusaders were very much in pursuit of wealth and power.

yup.
Point taken, and I agree. I wrote crusaders without really thinking through.

Tho Im sure you got the drift of what I was saying. I could have chosen another group, maybe the ancient Hebrews, but I picked crusaders almost at random.


GaryB.

Logic is logic. Or does god have some kind of super logic. Is that logical.

So the question is:-

Can god microwave a burrito so hot that he cant eat it???


Wheres omnigod on that one.

I can guess, hes hiding...probably in a gap somwhere


Incidently I identify myself as a satanist. Its a great way to offend people, and yes, I am 'god'. Or at least Im my god.

There is a purpose to atheism and that is to understand reality. Atheists don't need god to explain things or to give them a reason to live. There are plenty of wonderful things without god. I'm sorry if your life is so empty that you need to make up a god in order to enjoy it.

That is somewhat silly. Some of the greatest scientists in history were religous.
Their faith in their god did not stop them from trying to understand that world around them.
I am sorry that the idea of god frightens you so much.

There has been a strong push to spread Christianity through their schools, and missionaries. I think it's a shame they wiped out native religions in Africa. What they did and are still doing there should be a crime. No nation ought be able to push it's religion on another.

Why? I thought ALL religions were bad? I guess what you really meant was Christianity is bad.

The christians offered to teach their daughter english and watch over her for free after school while the parents worked. The family was not christian. Well guess what? The daughter is now a christian. This is what I call evil.

Then you have a seriously fucked up notion of what constitutes 'evil'.

The only reason they help anyone is because they want to convert them.

First, you need to figure out why they feel the need to convert people.
And no. It aint for the money. You may need to pretend you dont hate christians for a few minutes in order to put some rational thought in to it.
Second the reason they 'help' people is because they are believe god wants them to serve others.

organized religion has done a lot of harm in the world and it divides people

Yes, but it has also done a great deal of good. If you can't see that there is something wrong with you.

their motive is to "save" people so that they can have more members, more money and more power to force their will on others.

Oh that is just dumb. There are more christian churches out there than just hte catholic church, and there are a great many of them that do not make much money at all.
There are certainly a lot of religous leaders who get caught up with the materialism thing, but to say they are all like that is just silly. It shows you hate first and think later.

Thousands of people hitting the streets door to door with bibles in every nation.

yeah, it aint for the money, chief. Whether right or wrong, most of the prostelatyzers have a belief in hell. They think everyone they dont convert is going to spend an eternity in torment.
That notion seems a little dumb to me, but if you can at least understand where these people are comming from and why they feel the drive to get their message out it might help you shake off some of your irrational hatred.
They think they are helping you. They dont sit around in their underground lairs and say thingsl ike "ok guys, if we can just get two or three more converts maybe we can afford that basketball court in the church gym!"

you can be damn sure that each and every one of them will be a christian.

More nonsense. You can only be sure that for a while each and every one of them will claim to be a christian.

garyb wrote: as you know, a true satanist denies god, the devil, all of it, because he worships will and the self. so, those loving blood sacrifice sacrifice soldiers and civilians for the greater good, that is, for the supreme will and self which is most actualized. religion and philosophy are simply tools to that end. that's why the same side promotes communism, capitalism, religion and atheism. divide and rule.....order out of chaos......

also, no, i don't agree that such a god is illogical. i say that you can't comrehend it. an 'omni" god would be the only one worthy of the title. all others are limited pretenders.....logic says that if there is a god, he must be all transcendant, "omni".

You could make such an argument in 1600 century when most people couldn't read. Satanism worships Satan, atheism doesn't worship anything. You're being extremely evil by trying to vilify atheism by any means.

I can only speak from experience. I'm against all religion but where I live most people are Christians and they are very conservative and political. They use the church to frighten people into voting certain ways. My other gripe with them is that they are the only religion which in such a systematic way, tries to convert people and takes advantage of people who are very poor. If you are starving you will eat at a church but let me tell you food is not the only thing on the menu.

Going to hell is just a tactic to frighten people into joining just like the WMD was an excuse to go into Iraq. It is a tool for mind control.

If you can't see that, then they got you too. You are one of them.

stardust wrote:As to atheism in practical use:
There is no positive example that atheism as state ideology led to better conditions.
As it has been shown in other posts atheism has been used to kill and dragoon diversity (clerical and secular)

As to rationalism as the only cure:
This is denial of diversity and it is boring.
Look to this thread and the bahaviors: Irrational in many aspects, especially the exteremists
It is a purely theoretical approach like saying:
Wouldnt it be nice if we all are superintelligent and friendly.

As to brain's suicide of diversity proposal:
Too extreme to be serious.
But what you think will the next generation look like ? Completely forced in the ideological line ? They automatically grow diverse. Look to the socialist/communist ideas of separating children from their parents and teach them the right ideology. We here in middle europe know about the (non existing) success. Therefore this is practically irrelevant.

All of this one dimensional approaches have the same weakness.
It does not match to the nature of human beings.
If you abstract to atheism you have the theism as the other side of the coin.
You dreamt of being further advanced in science without religion.
The argument is nonsense since after the breakdown of the roman empire the arabic and the christian monks were the ones to let the knowledge survive.
But back to progress.
Mankind will very likely survive only if it can reach not only scientific progress but a cultural one.
All kind of ideologies are not supporting the cultural progress because they cannot solve their inherent problem of being not capacious enough to let progress grow.
The extreme positions dont help. It is about recognizing those extremes as such and take progress instead.

More presumptiuos bullshit without any source support.
There's was and there is no state that claimes atheism as the state ideology, so how can you claim that no states that proclaim atheism as the state ideology never led to better conditions. Do you know who was the third president of United States? Yes, it is Thomas Jefferson. Do you believe that Separation of Church and State led to worse conditions in US? Have you heard of Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom?

Let me quote:

Wiki wrote:
"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."

How about backing up your oppinions with some sources.

Everyone's view has to do with experience. I would not be here today if not for the christians and I can tell you, there has been a severe impact on 4 generations so far in my family and the younger ones are not even aware why.

stardust wrote:Hey brain I see you moving.
That is great in my eyes.

First of all you are admitting that your atheistic world view has a lot to do with your personal (bad) experience,
and, even more important, that it is very much related to your very homegrown situation in the land of the free.

This relativisation slowly puts you back into the outer rims of realistic world view.
welcome back.