DAS AI Electronik specs

[JoPo]

!! Yep !!

I think that my salory should be much higher regarding the work I do ! I want to buy a Solaris hardware synth, a nice digital mixing desk and a lot of other thing and I can't !!

Hum.. Sorry..

I don't know if it's more oriented to 'raising the floor' rather than 'lowering the ceiling'. If you just lower the threshold without rising the level, it does a perfect job. With this device, you can get very subtle effect and strong as well.

The relation between ratio & threshold should be asked to DAS guys. My knowledge is not big enough to not say bullshit.

Hence, with the threshold fully anti clockwised, the ratio has no effect.

I guess that with the threshold fully anti clockwised, it reachs 0db, so the ratio has no effect, the entire compressor has no effect. On a normal compressor, the ratio knob is reversed, isn't it ? Maybe the answer is as simple as that...

I'm wondering if in any compressor, there is an hysteresis on the ratio like on some gate device. (I mean if the reducing level threshold and stoping to reduce level threshold are different) Again some precision to ask to people who buid compressor devices.

One thing is sure : the AI electronik compressor doesn't behave exactly like the other.

[jksuperstar]

Some compression styles use two compressors in parallel. In this way, you can control transients, or get the hysteresis that you mention. And maybe, this compressor makes use of multiple compressors internally, or at least multiple paths in creating the "side chain" control signal....but the controls are simply boiled down to look like that of a single compressor.

Just my thoughts on what it could be.

[garyb]

well, the AI has some automatic functions...

[dante]

The relationship between Ratio and Treshold seems to be like this :

When both are at default position 12 oclock, the output is the same as if the whole device was bypassed.

When either Threshold OR Ratio are set hard left, the output is the same as if the whole device is bypassed.

Its only when Treshold is at 12 o'clock, and pushing Ratio past 12 oclock does the compression become audible.

You can see this visibly by flicking the VU toggles to G.R. (Gain Reduction) position, and toggling bypass during testing varying positions of the Treshold and Ratio knob positions.

Note also, that this gain reduction is independent of the level being pumped into the device (moving STM Master Gain up and down has no effect on device gain reduction meters).

So, my observations seem to indicate that this compressor accepts whatever RMS is coming into it as the 12 oclock positions and to that you apply gain reduction by moving either threshold or ratio past 12 oclock.

If you played a soft track into this compressor, it would apply the same amount of compression as if you played a loud track into it.

Note that in Gain Reduction mode, the main VU stay at zero when no input is present, and also if neither gain nor threshold knob is past 12 o clock.

Do your observations concur with this JoPo ?

[JoPo]

When both are at default position 12 oclock, the output is the same as if the whole device was bypassed.

Well.. I tested this : I put the AI at the mixer output and raised the master mixer volume (with both at default position 12 oclock) and I obtained a level reduction... Thus I cannot say it's bypassed.

When either Threshold OR Ratio are set hard left, the output is the same as if the whole device is bypassed.

Right.

Its only when Treshold is at 12 o'clock, and pushing Ratio past 12 oclock does the compression become audible.

As I said before, it depends of the signal amplitude which goes in. But yes : when you push the ratio after 12 oclock, the compression increases, without touching the threshold, this is the distinctive feature of it.

Note also, that this gain reduction is independent of the level being pumped into the device (moving STM Master Gain up and down has no effect on device gain reduction meters).

Damn ! I don't get that result at all ! If I raise the signal gain which I pump into it, I can see the reduction level increasing ! You say 'STM master gain' where did you plug the device ? As master insert or outside the mixer ? If it's in master insert, the STM master gain is post insert, so the AI doesn't "see" it.

If you played a soft track into this compressor, it would apply the same amount of compression as if you played a loud track into it.

??? Did you drink some special thing ??? I want to taste it !
If it would work this way, it would be a very strange compressor ! Same amount of level reduction whatever the signal amplitude comes in ?!?! This is not possible !

I think you should explain me where / how you pluged the device. I don't get the same results at all ! There is something I don't understand.

[dante]

Note also, that this gain reduction is independent of the level being pumped into the device (moving STM Master Gain up and down has no effect on device gain reduction meters).

Damn ! I don't get that result at all ! If I raise the signal gain which I pump into it, I can see the reduction level increasing ! You say 'STM master gain' where did you plug the device ? As master insert or outside the mixer ? If it's in master insert, the STM master gain is post insert, so the AI doesn't "see" it.

If you played a soft track into this compressor, it would apply the same amount of compression as if you played a loud track into it.

??? Did you drink some special thing ??? I want to taste it !
If it would work this way, it would be a very strange compressor ! Same amount of level reduction whatever the signal amplitude comes in ?!?! This is not possible !

I think you should explain me where / how you pluged the device. I don't get the same results at all ! There is something I don't understand.

I have placed the device in the mastering chain, therefore post STM mixer.

Did you try these tests with the Vu/G.R. switched to the G.R. position ?

We are talking about Gain Reduction here. Having Threshold at 12 oClock seems to me the same compression ratio will apply to a 6db input as it would to a 12db input.

EG everything is 'relative' to the input level (STM output).

If you're not getting the same result, Ill have to re-do my tests with some sort of graphics to illustrate.

Well, I need to do the graphics anyway for th article.

If it would work this way, it would be a very strange compressor ! Same amount of level reduction whatever the signal amplitude comes in ?!?! This is not possible !

Why not ? Why would it not be possible to apply the same amount of compression to a -6db (avg RMS) input as a -12db ( avg RMS) one ?

If the RMS is taken from the input level, and that is used as the 12 oclock position of the Threshold, with everything relative to the input level, then why isnt it possible ?

Why are there no fixed 'db' numbers around the dials ?

[JoPo]

Did you try these tests with the Vu/G.R. switched to the G.R. position ?

Sure !

Merde (oops ! Sorry !) ! I made some tests and you're right (! I was sure of the opposite !) : the master inserts are post master fader for "technical reasons", they say only (dunno why on the english one, they just say "ahead of the master fader") on the french manual !
Anyway, the test I explain in the post before works (I put the AI at the mixer output and raised the master mixer volume (with both at default position 12 oclock) and I obtained a level reduction), maybe the signal you used was too low.

Why not ? Why would it not be possible to apply the same amount of compression to a -6db (avg RMS) input as a -12db ( avg RMS) one ?

Well.. It depends where is the threshold.. If it is below 6db, ok, but if it is, let's say at 9db, signal upper 9db should be reduced and below, not. And I think that a lot of compressor increase level reduction with signal amplitude.. (to be checked ... you give me doubt !!)

If a compressor gives the same amount of level reduction whatever the signal amplitude comes in, it would be no more and no less a normal linear gain fader and it would be useless : no dynamic modulation, imho.

We are talking about Gain Reduction here. Having Threshold at 12 oClock seems to me the same compression ratio will apply to a 6db input as it would to a 12db input.

Sure ! It does nothing ! With the threshold at 12, you need to pump a much higher signal than 6db to get a small level reduction !

For graphics illustration, I use 'Fastone capture', it is very convenient when you have oftenly screen images to catch, it has good keyboard shortcuts to save time. I make a lot of doc at work, so I use it a lot.

[dante]

If a compressor gives the same amount of level reduction whatever the signal amplitude comes in, it would be no more and no less a normal linear gain fader and it would be useless : no dynamic modulation, imho.

Sure, it has to give some compression. But what Im saying is that its possible the 12 o'clock threshold is not activating the ratio unless theres a variation of amplitude over the average (over time) of the amiplitude, whether that average amplitude is -12db or -6db.

In other words, the threshold is not a fixed db, but uses the average input level (over time) as its 12 oClock reference.

I will set up an animated GIF of what I am observing.

[JoPo]

GIF ! Even better with some motion !

[dante]

I think you are right, I forgot to turn of other devices before AI Comp in mastering chain. Now it behaves more conventionally. Tests this gif shows :

1) Both Ratio and Treshold at 12 o'clock. No Gain Reduction.
2) Turn up Ratio. Gain Reduction occurs.
3) Reduce STM output. Gain Reduction disappears.

AI Comp Ratio Test

aicomp2.gif (399.65 KiB) Viewed 1282 times

Conclusion : There is an output level on the STM which will make your statement of just turning up Ratio without touching Treshold introduce Gain Reduction. This to me is an expected result - no surprise. The Ratio increase is simply responding to the 12 oClock threshold level in combination with your input level.

[dante]

Second test : Shows Treshold turning fully right (clockwised) increases Gain Reduction.

AI Comp Threshold Test

aicomp3.gif (650.21 KiB) Viewed 1282 times

Conclusion: Treshold knob orientation seems to be the reverse of other compressors.

[JoPo]

Yes ! Now, we agree on everything !

There is an output level on the STM which will make your statement of just turning up Ratio without touching Treshold introduce Gain Reduction. This to me is an expected result - no surprise. The Ratio increase is simply responding to the 12 oClock threshold level in combination with your input level.

No surprise ? Is it so often in compressors ? Maybe in others, it's less visible, cause I don't know other one or I never noticed it...
Anyway, I'd like to know exactly what is the relation between them.

Conclusion: Treshold knob orientation seems to be the reverse of other compressors.

Agree !


- PS : excellent gif, how do you make them ? -

[dante]

Heres the DAS1610++ doing the same thing - threshold and Ratio at 12oclock - no Gain Reduction. Turn Ratio up - Gain Reduction.

DAS1610

DAS1610.gif (774.92 KiB) Viewed 1273 times

Captured with LiceCap http://www.cockos.com/licecap/

[dante]

JoPo ?

[JoPo]

... !!! ...

I don't use the 1610++ ... Why ? Because when I had it, it painted my screen in blue surreptitiously, and as I don't like this, I have a bad image of this device. (I already said that value judgement we have on things mays be build by some strange ways, sometime) I should try it again.
Is it as good as AI ? Well, sure, it's different.

I guess you already have some question for DAS guys ?

Thanks for the gif maker link !

[garyb]

the 166 is very similar in character to the dBx 160-166 compressors.
it's never blue screened here.

[JoPo]

I made a try ! Ploof ! Blue screen as soon as I touch SCI button. Don't know why, it always did that. I guess SCI means side chain input, the blue screen appears as I load 1610++ in an insert slot. Maybe, it doesn't like that one ask it to show SCI when he is in an isert.
I don't really want to try when it is loaded in the project window since I'm 'conviced' that blue screen could damage my pc...

But you can have a try, maybe, it works fine elsewhere... It is the only DAS device which crash the pc, here.

I use it with Xite-1 & asus P5Q.

[dante]

So far I don't have any questions for DAS because the AI seems to behave same as other compressors apart from the reverse orientation of threshold. My earlier test conclusions were incorrect to input levels, but now all the controls make sense. I might see if they proofread what I write at end of draft though.

I'm reasonably sure that most compressors will have an input level where moving ratio from default with threshold at default will result in gain reduction where there wasnt any previously. If the input level is near or on the threshold for example.

I have yet to test side chain on AI - although I have used side chain on 1610.

The answer to which one is better , AI or 1610 will be subjective I suspect - it will depend on which hardware version you like. The 1610 is like a dbx so if you like dbx then use 1610.

These are both emulating closely thier hardware counterparts so its great for users of the originals if they want a cost effective emulation. The hardware AI cost more than 10 times the DAS version so if I had used in the past the original and can't afford now, then having DAS AI would be a fantastic answer.

Anyway I will try the 1610 as an insert and sidechain it to see if it blue screens - like Gary it hasn't happened on my systems so far.

[jhulk]

the hardware dbx was great for drums made beats have punch and was why is used for hiphop also mostly for the sp12/1200

which is also noisy but gave it presence and usually is the beats go to comp

[dante]

JoPo, here is test I made w/ DAS 1610 as an insert, turning Side Chain On and Off. No bluescreen here.

DAS 1610 SideChain

D1610-SC.gif (102.52 KiB) Viewed 1176 times

Is this the right test ?