Scope 5.1 bug free when?

[astroman]

yeah, it's pretty ridiculous - I bought a Pulsar One about 10 years ago.
Since then it delivered it's daily service.
Only 1 upgrade was required (V2.4 to 3.2), all the other ones were more or less cosmetic.
I have 5.1 installed but could switch anytime back to 3.2 and won't shed a single tear.

Version 5.1 is a new pack due to some obscure 'new' Win bla bla rubbish...
SC is forced to waste manpower on bullshit, that's for sure - and as people ask for it, they are due pay.
There's neither a need for Win7 nor 64 and up bits to produce music.
(some exceptions in the Hollywook giga-league may apply... ok, how many of us participating on the red carpet ? )

Computer gear has become so cheap, that one can afford a couple of systems parallel or exchange drives.
A reboot is done in a minute... a Sata Drive just takes one grip to be removed and re-inserted.
There ARE plenty of ways to make use of the system - I really don't want to miss mine.
it performs 95% of what I request from it
and it performs 500% better than any PC Mac BS I'm confronted with during work hours

A mixer doesn't save an aux assign... omg...
is it the only mixer on earth ? live with it or use another one, that simple.
btw this is NOT a thing that you can fix in a minute.
You can't even fix it within a week. You may see it on the mixer surface, but the reason for it is way below in some data structure stuff that IS really complex.

I have Scope 5.1 mostly for the sake of Mod IV - which I can crash in less than a minute if I'm after trouble
ok, so I'm a bit more careful and avoid certain stuff
it still leaves more than plenty which I don't find anywhere else
I got a few extra reverbs and fine plugins that are way more worth than the 200 Euro I paid for it.
Modular doesn't save presets properly ?
ok, a big Moog doesn't have presets either, so what ?

to me it looks like people really lost their minds about 'upgrades or -dates' over the last decade.
If there's one thing that p*sses me off with the my iphone/ipad then it's the permant pushing of UPDATES
Because nothing is finished, but just urged to market not to miss an opportunity.
Scope looks totally smart and grown compared to that scenario - fortunately it's old enough.

cheers, Tom

[garyb]

exactly, Tom.

as is, warts and all, the sytem is LEAPS and BOUNDS beyond anything else on the market, especially if you are talking about high-end audio. vst is strictly native. if all you really care about is computers and playing with computers, the there are plenty of native only solutions. if you want GEAR to make music and you can't afford a million dollars worth of REAL high-end synths, eqs, compressors and other fx, nad wiring and patch bays(many tens of thousand of dollars more)Scope is the ONLY choice. you can have all the crappy vst plugins all in the box as you like. by the time you start using processing that approaches the sound of real hardware, the latest cpu will choke to death on it trying to do the work on-line, real time. most of you have never even used a real desk or a real compressor to know the difference.

i need a system that can integrate all real and virtual sources in realtime, not new toys every six months. want to find a dilettante? it's someone who builds a new computer more than once every five to ten years. professionals can't afford to be always upgrading and debugging. what other system can really deliver 10 years of high level service? well, my Scope cards have done better than that. i recently had a number one song in the USA and Canada(college charts, no big deal) with a P4 northwood. one of my clients who is bigger than your dreams is still making his money from a pulsar1, usign v5.1 64bit and he's happier than can be. yep, a REAL working pro has no problem, it seems.

two big time users that find v5.1 TOTALLY useful, even with a few bugs, that i have dealt with personally:
http://www.williamgoldstein.com/
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1047980/bio

[dante]

Warts ? what warts ? One or two spots of acne maybe...

I'm just totally wrapped I didnt sell the cards when I got the mini XITE, ok maybe 1 big XITE would have been better for pure horsepower, but I saved money and the cards are so usefull and worth more in functionality than the second hand price, and to be able to use the cards on the same system as the XITE, well thats versatility for ya.

Long live the cards, XITE and S|C !!

[erminardi]

Garyb You're right about quality (infact I'm with S|C since long time without doubt) but you cannot ignore the GREAT utility of VST total recall in a project + inbuilt automation, without the hassle of 2 (or more) separate projects, layouts, desktops, ASIO I/O tricks, etc.
For my productivity I cannot give up all this... should be my right as a customer in 2011!!!
Peace.

[dante]

Only 2 projects ? I run Scope XITE + Scope PCI + Spewbase + Reason 6 - thats 4 projects a song ! A snap on only a dual monitor system.

Thats how I remixed this :

http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=30413

George Martin and The Beatles would have given there eye-tooth for a system like this.

Love the versatility that ONLY Scope allows.

SCOPE - LET YOUR IMAGINATION RUN WILD !

[erminardi]

Dante, my creativity suffers, if I have to waste 15 minutes every time to turn on the project and "rewire" everything.
I personally need a system that will boot in max 2 minutes, and I need total recall and a total automation.
I don't have a personal technician at the mixer... so whe I have an idea I must fix quick into my multitrack!

[garyb]

it's funny, but the only recorded music that has made a true, lasting impression on humanity has all been done on primitive hardware that needed to be patched. a second needed to be present to record on a mimeographed sheet, the positions of knobs and faders for later "recall". later automation was added, but it was minimal. this was the height of recording technology. it has not and it will not be surpassed as long as we continue to use typical transducers.

all this fluff is highly overated.

that said, i DO want true automation in SCOPE mode. i would hope that that translates to xtc mode, too!

i SURELY do not want to flame anyone personally! i respect that everyone wants to use stuff how thay want to. the things that people want, i'd like to see them get(for the most part). i'm just aggressive in the defense of the people at Sonic|Core, because i work with them and i know how much they DO care about the quality of the product. i also KNOW that they really want to do all of the things everyone wants(for the most part). Holger keeps detailed notes about everything everyone says to him about Scope. there's only so much that can actually, physically be done and have the business attended to, emails answered(sometimes hundreds in a day but always multiples of tens), children attended to, etc. there are not hundreds involved with S|C, not even 50, not even 20, less than that. i understand that people want what they want, but the fact is, the product is a miracle, and it wouldn't even exist if Holger and Juergen(of Ferrofish) didn't get together to lose money updating Scope after Creamware closed. the decision was made to do a PCI version. better business says, ditch the old product, don't support it and make everyone buy new. this sure works for apple and cubase and sonar. people love giving those guys and people like Intel and M$ money every few months, but not S|C for some reason(but that's another story). it's not like S|C made, or intended to make more PCI cards. then, "customers", none of whom ever spent a penny with S|C spit out curses about the cost(yep, i've been called some choice names), as though the kind of programming that NO OTHER COMPANY HAS BEEN ABLE TO DO(except Creamware) should be donated and the programmers should work 2 1/2 years for free.

yes, there are a few bugfixes needed immediately and developement needs to move forward with these added features, like updated automation. yes, 3 or 4 programmers with six figure salaries need to be hired. since that really can't be done right now, encouragement would work better than discouragement. everyone is trying really hard, which is more than can be said for most business these days. most just want your money, but care little for the quality unless the price is ridiculous, and often not even then. if you think anything related to Scope is expensive then you are really ignorant about what professional audio gear costs. they are not justr farting around over there, even though you can't tell. there are plans, we'll see what happens, but the result won't be attributable to folks just not doing the work. also, Scope does sound better than ever and i'm glad that the sound was the first priority(except for the 64bit wave driver bug).

[garyb]

Dante, my creativity suffers, if I have to waste 15 minutes every time to turn on the project and "rewire" everything.
I personally need a system that will boot in max 2 minutes, and I need total recall and a total automation.
I don't have a personal technician at the mixer... so whe I have an idea I must fix quick into my multitrack!

wouldn't your ipad or even the telephone be better(more practical) for capturing an idea that might disappear?

romance, huh?

[erminardi]

Dante, my creativity suffers, if I have to waste 15 minutes every time to turn on the project and "rewire" everything.
I personally need a system that will boot in max 2 minutes, and I need total recall and a total automation.
I don't have a personal technician at the mixer... so whe I have an idea I must fix quick into my multitrack!

wouldn't your ipad or even the telephone be better(more practical) for capturing an idea that might disappear?

romance, huh?

[erminardi]

Anyway, my job is Graphic Design + Marketing Strategy, and honestly, in this world of web 2.0, S|C is doing it bad enough... :\
Look at (poor) Steve Jobs, the marketing is today the 80% of the business:
despite of S|C product is undeniably the best, I think that few people really know.
Professionals [the Good Reputation] are scared/blocked by the presence of bugs/driver-immaturity (they read the specialized forums before buy!!!), and the consumers [the Money] does not know what it is really (they read Magazines and mainstream forums!!!).
One of these communications MUST be improved.

My others 2 cents.

[HUROLURA]

OK erminardi, I just noticed you got rid of your Xite-1 (because of lack of VST integration I suppose). But how are you still working with your set of scope PCI (all of them wouldn't obviously be host in one only computer so you definettly have to setup something). The VST integration is not that obvious as for example Access (a bigger but still small company) have fight long to achieve something working and I do not even know if it now ive what was first announced (I only have a Virus A which is enough for me so far due to the other gears I have and what scope offer to me).

Things may be a question of workflow, but as already mentionned we all have to cope with what is available on the market. Pure native system can be used but will keep its limitation due to the simple fact that a computer being a versatile thing, it can do anything but the performance will always suffer from this versatility: specialized and optimised gears for one specific use often outperform a versatile system that is meant to do anything.

My workflow is probably different and any of us may have some different way of working, but in my case the different system I use (hardware synth, Xite-1, 1 Modular IV dedicated PC, 1 more versatile SDK PC also used to sometime add some sounds and 1 other small fanless PC handle as a hardware gear, something like a homemade NOAH to provide plug-ins not available on the NOAH). The audio connexion between all these sysetm is achieved via ADAT links. The control connection between them is achieved via MIDI. The spoecial thing is that I still use the sequencer in MIDI only mode. The reason I am happy with this is that I always look at my scope system as a hardware one which provide me some productivity advantages other rewiring hadware stuff.

So for me, I just see VST integration interesting as remote controller for plugs running on the scope systems and are mixed by the scope system (where I do have everything I need on my side) just to benefit from the sequencer MIDI automation.

Actually what is now called a DAW is still used as a MIDI sequencer on my side so that this keep me almost on a total recall system. I just have to take care about giving the same name to the projects handles under the different subsystem.
My vision of data flow (either audio or midi) is that it should be a kind of straight line starting from MIDI controllers through the sequencer to the different sound sources mixed with scope to an audio out. In case of audio sources the most obvious arrangement would be choice for me would be to dedicate one of the subsystem to handle audio sources pre-processing before feeding it to the audio sequencer and use another system for post processing. I would just avoid back and forth data exchange to limit the whole latency.

I could even simplify the whole setup because of Xite-1 power horse but still need the numerous I/O provided by the scope PCI cards so far.

The good news for me is the MADI integration on Ferrofish A16 MK II as this one would be a marvellous successor for both ADAT and MIDI and should provide the one connection for all paradigm.

As a user, you wish for a total recall solution but I feel this can only be achieved with totally integrated solution like.
I do not think there has been such a solution on the market so far.
The other DSP solution all fail with DSP+I/O integration under the same roof. Most of them gave up their DSP solution (TC electronics, SSL, Focusrite, ...) some with resurging more scope-like results like Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 DSP, TC electronics Konnekt series, MOTU Mk III series and the new Steinberg UR sreies, but all of them limited to audio recording and mixing.

The only software+hardware integration available is now Avid Protools HD suite.

There is also only two main DSP providers (apart from SC):
- Universal Audio on one side with no IO and no synth plug-in.
- Protools with some separate DSP and I/O devices who suffer from the same lack of DSP+I/O integration as the other and hence increase latency trouble. Latency just means no "live" use possible. The offer regarding synth plugs is also quite limited there.

So I see no solution to your wish on the market for now and I am sure you are right that if scope could be easily integrated as VSTi elements .

The simple VST integration as was available with XTC mode is not the efficient way for me as this imply back and forth exchange between DAW and DSP system and hence loose the benefit from scope architecture.
The right way would be to have "something" letting you remote controlling the different scope devices from the as VST elements but dedicated to remote control thruogh MIDI with no audio use and a kind of way to handle audio flow with pre DAW and post inserts to get something similar to what real hardware offers.
But I guess it is not that straightforward and would imply closer cooperation between one DAW editor and SonicCore using the Xite-1 as input and pre-processor to feed the DAW, then the DAW feeding the Xite-1 for post processing. In my use case as I mostly use synths, there is no preprocessing stage so I just use the sequencer as a MIDI remote for scope and other gears fed back to Xite-1, Mix under scope and record final mix either with VDAT or back the DAW itself.

[HUROLURA]

Regarding communication, it is true that Creamware was known in the pre-2005 also from advertising in mag (it is the place where I discover scope in 1997 while reading the german Keys magazine before finally jumping on board in 2006).

There is no visible flagship so far, but the Solaris could become an indirect one as soon as it will have spread under in-view musicians digits.

I always thought the ASB line was a good idea to reach more "consumers" market.
The new B4000+ could be the start of a relaunch towards this strategy. The mag ASB reviews were quite good at least regarding the sound provided. It is also easier to focus on a synth rather than on Scope concept.
The A16 Mk II can also boost them on the market as it provide a lot for the price.

Scope concept is quite complex for the market as there is no equivalent thing to compare it to, just as the NOAH was at its time (none of such versatile synth met success, neither Roland VariOs or Soundarts Chameleon. And I do not even know how successfull is the Arturia Origin. But it looks like a box that can be anything is difficult to identify as a usefull box. Maybe the modular approach lieke thoose of Origin and Solaris would have more success but we have to keep in mind that Clavia Modular has been stopped while more standard approach Access Virus was quite a succes (though they fight with similar VST integration issues we discuss just as Arturia now).

What give me faith in the future is that new instrument or controller approach are being brought to the market by small companies: monome, eigenlabs eigenharps, da fact karlax or feeltune rhizome.

Even big companies could bring the Tenori-On or Karma to the market as new musical approach.

[erminardi]

I with, XTC ITB vision, am a coustomer, just like Garyb with his Scope purity, or Hurolura with his hardware vision, we are all right.
But this is the market law.
S|C should be pay attention equally to everyone of these categories.
Scope is the best enviroment to create and mix, and the fact that everyone can see it in its own way is a perfect example of how effective this product as a potential.
Perhaps be a enlightened and far-sighted producer of this type in this global era, paradoxically, it is a point against...
Seems that the winners of the game are those who make the usual USB card with 2 I / O and MIDI
I personally trust in S|C.
I do not own other brands since 12 years...
All that I can hope is a better and faster communication and bug fixing/implementation for ALL of these customer categories.
That's all.
Then comes the money.

[garyb]

well, right now, it's pay for better marketing or pay for development.

no one, including the folks here can afford to pay for either and then wait for the market to catch up. it's catch 22, but that's just how it is. the environment for hardware producers is highly toxic right now, but i think that S|C has a better than average chance of success.

[dante]

The environment for hardware producers is highly toxic right now

The B4000+ will be a good test case then.

[erminardi]

well, right now, it's pay for better marketing or pay for development.

no one, including the folks here can afford to pay for either and then wait for the market to catch up. it's catch 22, but that's just how it is. the environment for hardware producers is highly toxic right now, but i think that S|C has a better than average chance of success.

There are today several viral marketing solutions, Web 2.0, which require surely perseverance and a little of craftiness, but have almost not costs (apart the time... yeah, I know... that's a dramatic cost!!).
Planetz is one of these, but now it's a little out of date because is a "closed" enviroment, good for existing customers, less good for potential.
I'm talking about official Facebook, a Youtube official channell, an official monthly newsletter, just for quick and banal examples.
IMO the main problem here, to "catch" new customers, is the inherent complexity fo the product and the long time to adapt to truly understand his quality and how it works.
Potential customers need to see immediately how Scope works IE in a Youtube channell.
Here in Planetz I think that stand out more the problems of the system than the merits, that's is right because this forum has become a sort of official (very good indeeed) troubleshooting forum.
The S|C website is sufficient to see WHAT is Scope, but is insufficient to "catch" the people and push it to BUY!
Look at UAD: audio/video demos, premium testimonials, monthly offers, an astounding newsletter, a lot of images, examples, etc. (not to mention the total VST drive compatibility, and I repeat that is central to this kind of business, now).
Almost every business starts with low money and working people, also my Design Studio, but today is NECESSARY to communicate almost daily with the people, that's strange, but sometimes is more important than WHAT you are doing with your business!!!
This is not the case of S|C that has a very promising product.
I personally spend almost half day with customer care/self promotion over web daily with my business, even I don't have time to do that.
So a serious company can not delegate all of this to a group of willing customers (Dante is the man ), S|C must directly manage it all with a serious marketing manager.
Just think about Apple, the decade without Steve Jobs: the products was the same before, but they were at risk of failure without a man with serious and clever marketing ideas!!!
I don't think that Apple products (like S|C ones) were cheap, unprofessional and bad... right?

[HUROLURA]

At least Youtube channel was started in februar 2010:
http://www.youtube.com/user/SonicCoreGm ... a6G8NxCMho

aber leider nur auf deutsch.

This is the type of thing that would help.

GaryB also made a smart youtube presentation on Frontenaudio channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyqVeClu ... re=related

Juergen also made something in german, but he had the good idea to put english subtitle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5F3XdUD ... re=related

More would be welcome, you're right.

[erminardi]

At least Youtube channel was started in februar 2010:
http://www.youtube.com/user/SonicCoreGm ... a6G8NxCMho

aber leider nur auf deutsch.

This is the type of thing that would help.

GaryB also made a smart youtube presentation on Frontenaudio channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyqVeClu ... re=related

Juergen also made something in german, but he had the good idea to put english subtitle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5F3XdUD ... re=related

More would be welcome, you're right.

Cool videos

OK, let me to play a game:
I'm a new potential customer, I have few days to decide what to buy (between UAD, or native plus standard I/O hardware or S|C all inclusive solution), so:
- who a re S|C? Photos of the factory, of the inside of laboratories? People? CEO self presentation? How serious is S|C? It's ok for my future of musician?
- how and how frequently they will speak to me? I'm used to the Univeral Audio newsletter.
- Scope OS seems interestig, harware is looking good (technical sheet says all well), but HOW it real works?!
- how works the virtual patching? I cannot find seriuos videos about it. Some homemade, but no one clear and exaustive. There are some manuals downloadable around here? There are some tutorial video in the S|C site?
- how sounds in deep and how works IE the plugin Prodyssey (yes I'm looking for a ARP Odysey clone and I am undecided between S|C one and GForce Oddity... both are VSTi, but I've not well understand if currently Prodyssey vorks in VST mode...). Gforce seems to be the best choice because works without harware lock key (is really the Scope DSP only a lock key or it offers other advantage?)
- how soudns EVERY EFX inside Scope? What is the quality? They says that S|C FX are good. UAD site let hear almost every plugin with MP3 and Videos. Here in S|C site i cannot find so much.
- Uh, I can see here that Hans Zimmer (I very like Hans!) is a Scope user. There are some others pro-users? There are some pro endorser that I've seen in my last live festivals? Hans is in the CW S|C site as testimonial since 2008, if I well remember, why today there are not here some others cool people?
- mh, seems that the drivers update has some torubles and delays.
- I've don't well understand the difference between Scope and XTC. I work mainly with cubase ITB and I wish all in VST mode. Does XTC works?

(here some examples)

[bosone]

erminardi, i TOTALLY agree with you.
S|C has the best card in the market (i own pulsar since 2000) and the worst marketing scheme in the world.
from the wrbsite its just impossible to understand what scope can do.
there are no tutorial, no examples, no schemes...
there are even very few audio example of the plugins, screenshots, etc.
you don't know what you will get from the package.
virtual patching (audio and midi) is the most powerful feature in scope. it simply does not have any coverage in the website!

i remember years ago when there was a competition to make scope demo. .. users were asked to make demos of scope plugins and the winners could choose a free plug (i won!)
is this such a bad idea to replay? now you can't even find those demos in the page.
and then, in the website, there were some pages of actual users, both professionals and amateur (i was there!). so at least one intersted customer could email some "real" people for informations.
i even remember a person from S|C (or was it CW) here in the forum to ask for suggestion to us. then he applied some idea he got.

i tried to set up a scope tutorial:
http://www.alchemystudio.it/Tutorial/Cr ... ial_en.htm
i even mailed S|C about that but got no replies. then i had no time to continue it...


the best marketing comes from the people, but then you have to support you company with a clear marketign strategy... each time i see someone in some forum asking or complaining about S|C i try to explain how it's working and why it's the best you can get!

maybe then can just start a facebook page or support planetz as the official forum, or if they have no resources to invest in marketing, go back to the idea of let the user do some competition making a demo/video/tutorial and give some plugin as a prize.

[HUROLURA]

Didn't you receive an e-mail from SC at the beginning of this month ?