it's getting cold...

[next to nothing]

oh yeah, rape and pillage!

[Zer]

tell the tale about the rape

[next to nothing]

forgot to mention gary, you are right about the vikings. The ice retracted so much we were able to sail even to north-america.

[garyb]

sure!

within tribal memory there have been several different temperature periods, warm then cold, now getting warm again.

[hubird]

We need good democraticly controlled gouvernments and intergouvernmental organisations, and in particular an independent and selfconscious press.

Haahahahahahahahahha

Yup with the absolutley, definaltey, would I lie to you, guaranteed impending threat of extinction for everything on the planet, because of us all powerful god-like men in our SUVs, it just seems obvious to me that what we need is a world state to sort it all out and look after us. We definatley need to look to our government as some kind of older sibling, maybe like a big brother. Then evrything'll be just fine


Heheheehehehehe

Oh yeh and remember kids 'Elvis didnt do no drugs'

I wish you joy of it, but you can't name any reasonable alternative for my three piles: good functioning gouvernments and organisations, democratic controll, and a free press.
Tell me your alternative

[garyb]

the current leadership will never be democratic or honest. you'll have to jettison them if you want those things, hubird.

also, democracy itself is a fraud. democracy is just mob rule. unless the mob is truly educated, not just trained, the mess will continue. it's easy for a dictator to rule a democracy as long as he can sway the emotions of the mob, an easy task for those who study human behavior. the thing that is made to counter-act that problem is called a republic. a republic is designed to reduce all power plays to endless arguement and stalemate. unfortunately, all of the earth's republics are overrun with corruption....democracy and the republic will never work if the people who are ruled are not soveriegn. slaves will always find themselves in a dictatorship. the building scientific dictatorship will be the endgame move, and it will be established democraticly. those being sacrificed must agree or there's no ritual, only murder. the sheep will happily munch on grass in the pasture they've been herded into and then lick the hands of the shepherd as he leads them off to slaughter......

[hubird]

so your only way-out you see is education, indeed a condition for democracy and as such a long term goal of every socialistic/democratic movement of the past.
Cuba even did this better that the US...
Historically democracy is a product of the emancipated middle class which got to big to be passed by by the old mediaval ruling class.
They made the mony, so they wanted political power, and they got it.
Parallel to this development education got available for all citizens, for the first time in history.
One can discuss at what point education gets manipulation, but noone can deny the positive side of the developments, or would you like to live in a pre-democratic society?
At this point a free press comes in, to keep the politicions on track where parliamental controll is shortcoming.

History is dynamic, and is triggered by conflicting parties.
There's Bilderberg and CFR, and there are countermovements.
Statements which nail history down to a fixed dictator-slave situation isn't realistic at all

[garyb]

countermoves?

culture=cultivate.

there has been only one ruling elite for many thousands of years.

education is only needed to counteract the dirty tricks of an overly complicated system...since the system is generally in charge of education, there's little hope there...

[garyb]

you disingenous guy! yes, the sunspot cycle that had gone on much longer than expected has now ended. surprise!(not)

all the other times that the earth warmed or cooled doesn't count anymore. only CO2 counts right? the ice age a couple of hundred years ago ended because of humvees and the warm period before that was from the roman SUVs. the high CO2 periods before that that weren't any warmer than today only happened because no one was looking.

a reminder, human CO2 production accounts for 0.117% of all greenhouse gases...

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/ice_a ... hor2117056
here's this link again. read ALL the info, then let's have reasonable, intelligent debate based on ALL the data, not just endless repeating of slogans written by those who wish to control and own humanity.

[hubird]

"What we should do is be more aware of the fact that it [the global climate] is changing and that we should be ready to adapt to the change."
Hence my remark that we need global institutions with enough (democraticly controlled0 power to solve the expected (big!) problems, especially if a new ice age is knocking on the door.
There is no alternative, 100% sovereign citizens restricted only by a minimal constitution won't bring us any further.
Even the Bilderbergers need people and stable societies to grab their mony from...

[garyb]

no, we don't need global management to save us.

we don't need these authorities. they are no help, they only come up with taxes and facism as solutions. we don't need to do much of anything about it except deal with whatever happens. whatever does happen, it won't happen overnight. good common sense is all that's required to save the day. authoritarian heroes not required....

[hubird]

good common sense is all that's required to save the day. authoritarian heroes not required....

is counting on good common sense your only hope or 'solution'?
With all your historical knowledge you should be more inventive (and realistic).
History shows this is doomed to failure.
See those Serbs today who seem never learn the lessons.
Only because of international cooperation they can't do anything about the independency of Kosovo, so that makes the difference of another prohibited war in the next future.

[garyb]

there's nothing to be done about global warming, except to move the coast if the waters rise.....

the earth's normal temperature is subject to flux anyway. it is normally hotter or colder.

common sense is all that's required. common sense fixes political problems as well, that's why politicians like to make the problems sooo complicated.

most problems are caused by the elite and we have to deal with them. we always get blamed. the serbs have long history and all of their problems are caused by europe's elite who pitted one tribe against the other(serb and croat and albanian). the english word "slave comes from "slav", the ethnic group. centuries of abuse breeds messed up cultures. the word "culture" comes from the same root as "cultivate" and carries the same meaning.......

there have been as many if not more wars since the UN as before.

to hell with global overlords.

[Me$$iah]

...Messiah ...is not one of that kind.

I was just joshing, with Huub, over the idea of governments being democratic.


On a serious note tho, garyb has got it down.
I agree with almost everything I read him say, and he usually saves me from having to jump in on a topic, by saying anything I would have, but in a far more articulate way

Thanks gary


Now lets all get our heads together a work out a way to defeat these space lizard overlords

[obama2008]

garyb:

Like I said I'm kind of indifferent about global warming (for now). I've read both sides and I'm stumped.... I just have a question for you...

Who benefits from a pro-global warming agenda?

Here's an example. Perhaps Democrats benefits because it gives their party legitimacy to be in office and run the country because republicans aren't qualified to handle the situation.

Any other situations come to mind? Are pro-global warming people fanatical or is there room for ambiguity as to the various data sets which have been presented so far?

[siriusbliss]

follow the money.
que bouno.

i don't deny it's getting warmer, i get tired of pointing out that there was an ice age just a few hundred years ago(1700s). why does anyone thing that this is the normal temperature? if you look at the earth's history, climate is always in a constant state of flux, depending most on solar activity.....

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/last_400k_yrs.html

record-breaking sunspots are the cause for supposed changing weather patterns, IMO. Not people.
The most we can blame ourselves for is what is happening to the oceans (plastics, dead fishing zones), and trying to control the weather. Turning the atmosphere into a weapon ( a whole OTHER conversation).

In my opinion we'll at least see Spring and Fall disappear.

Basically been a 'cool Spring' here in San DIego. More rain than last year. Freak storm last weekend that marooned people in the mountains for 24 hours. Snow down to 2000 feet elevation. Beautiful here at the beach.

Fun times...

Greg

[hubird]

I don't get it.
If we are talking about the history of earth' climate cycles we are supposed to think in 100.000 years unities.
But if we talk about democracy and ways to find solutions for global problems we suddenly should think a-historically.
It's 70 years ago we felt the urgent need to start intergouvernmental organisations.
Globalisation, started with kolonialism, forces us to that, but now inspirered by the masses who in our medea culture refuse to accept war.
How will that be in about 1000 years.
Or 10.000...

[garyb]

THE LAST MINI ICE AGE WAS BETWEEN 1400 AND 1700AD(approx).

THAT'S ONLY A FEW HUNDRED YEARS AGO. BEFORE THAT, TEMPERATURES WERE CONSIDERABLY WARMER THAN THE CURRENT TEMPERATURES.

THIS IS FACT.

sorry to yell(so i made the font smaller), you just don't seem to be able to hear this.....

[cringing when i think of the "retalliation" for speaking the truth against the present days religion, much like Copernicus when he said that the earth revolved around the sun, which was in direct opposition to the religion of his day]


and what's with all this going "green" thing? i'm all for being ecologically sensible and responsible, but when i was a child, being "green" meant you were either very, very sick, or very very envious, neither of which were good...

seriously, no need to get upset. it's good to talk about this stuff.

btw-colonialism is something to be very ashamed of. the fact that populations followed their leaders into exploiting their fellow human beings shows a definite lack of character and independant thought in those populations. if globalism is colonialism's creation, then that is an excellent reason for good men to kill it in it's tracks.

[siriusbliss]

hehe

Well gary you did not get your message through.

You always seem to deny man made global warming and the need to coordinate human individuals for an improvement of their impact to biosphere.

Now I can see that you do this because you fight the political equalisation and mind control by an evil global elite.

Many others do not share in first place your view of the evil hidden agenda that instrumentalizes the GW for controlling power and making (oil) money.

Here you have to accept that the mindset to build a biosphere conscience is not only indoctrinated by this evil elite, but also honestly felt and expressed by empathetic fellow citizens that really want a sustainable life on earth for human beings.

Sitting on my ranch and watching the changes is only easy if I am completely autarkic from the rest of the 'human society' and autarkic from a biosphere I am part of.

The 'elitists' exploit perfectly meaningful ecological awareness and turn it into glorified land-grabbing, and centralized control of resources. They are, in a sense indoctrinating us all in the 'green' movement as a ruse to instead take more control of natural resources.

If people were educated and acted upon their ecological awareness, then we would be driving self-sustaining automobiles, and running our studios on free energy devices. We would proactively turn the oil industry on it's ear, and all the politicians that are owned by these oil conglomerates would be thrown in jail for corruption and fraud.

Greg

[hubird]

well well, that old allmighty elite...even the countermovements are a setup.
where would we be without?