Will 3rd parties ever be able to develope for Noah ?

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:47 am

Symboite may be a developer, but i dought very much if any developer who is also a Noah user would take that attitude to the suggestion of an SDK release for Noah

peace

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:55 am

I don't disagree that it's a great platform and some SDK for it would be nice, I'm just saying it's probably just a bit more complicated than that when you take into account the whole "reality" thing. You might think it's a simple thing to release an SDK, but it sometimes/most of the time isn't (talking from the experience of using alot of in-house tools that are usually very useful, but never something a company would release.)

It's pretty easy from where you are sitting to claim it's a really simple matter and really should be done, and you might or might not be wrong about the complexity or the endeavour, I'm just saying that, when you take reality into account, the Noah is still a discontinued product, and for such a small company as CW to invest alot of energy in cleaning up and releasing (AND SUPPORTING! otherwise no synth dev will want to work with it) an SDK for a discontinued product would pretty much be suicide.

If you want to know why I'm saying this and what I base it on, I suggest you start your own hardware/software company and figure it out for yourself. There's no easy 1+1=2 way of figuring this out, otherwise all software and hardware companies out there would be immensely successful.

I'm sure if there are ressources and market-opportunities available, CW will do something about this, for the moment I think you have made your message clear and there's no need to go absolutely overboard about the whole matter.

BTW, I'm not affiliated to or employed by Creamware, just using their products a fair bit.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:23 pm

Glad you like the idea in theory Symbiote

johnbowen · Post by **johnbowen** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:05 pm

BushBasher,

There is no Noah or ASB SDK available to 3rd parties. The modules are exclusively CWA's, and as far as I know, there are no plans to release them to developers.

I was told it was too difficult and too much work without much 'handholding' from CWA for them to let 3rd parties do it by themselves.

It's possible they would consider converting an existing 3rd party device to be Noah compatible, but I don't have any real idea about this. It would have to make sense from a "return on investment" point of view for both parties, though.

cheers,

john bowen
zarg music

[ This Message was edited by: johnbowen on 2005-08-30 00:06 ]

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:25 am

On 2005-08-30 00:05, johnbowen wrote:
BushBasher,
There is no Noah or ASB SDK available to 3rd parties.

Yes, it's a shame for Noah.

The modules are exclusively CWA's, and as far as I know, there are no plans to release them to developers.

I can understand CWA wishing to protect their investments & intelectual property, but surely that inhibits the growth of knowledge?

I was told it was too difficult and too much work without much 'handholding' from CWA for them to let 3rd parties do it by themselves.

I can't understand this. A Noah DEV community would emerge & help one-another mostly. I'm guessing that Noah couldn't easily be damaged with bad code either, especially with a debugger & Sharc emulator in the developement enviroment.

It's possible they would consider converting an existing 3rd party device to be Noah compatible, but I don't have any real idea about this.

Now, that would be a great start.

It would have to make sense from a "return on investment" point of view for both parties, though.

I can understand this. Companies have salaries & bills to pay.

However, lets play with some numbers.

I think CWA must have had at least 2000 Noahs built. 2000 Noahs would mean about 1950 users allowing for those who buy Noah in pairs

Even if i'm wrong & they only made 1000, that's still almost a thousand Noah customers that CWA have. Either way, lets try to be realistic. If you John & few select others who didn't need their hands held, were to be allowed to develope for Noah & sell your apps, would you be interested enough to give it a go ? CW would surely only have to provide the toolkit, info & examples. In theory if there were say three of you to start with & you all developed *one* application for Noah that CW will sell for you online & take 30% cut, surely that would be good

I mean your 1st Noah synth could be 149 euro John. If CWA were to sell say, 500 of those for you & take 30%, you'd get back about 50,000 euro over 6-12 months & with 3 of you developing, CWA could expect returns of 75,000 euro if they sold 500 of each application.

I understand that porting a comprehensive app to Noah could take you 6-12 months John, but i'm wondering if it could be worth it for everyone; CWA, Developers & all those Users.

What do you think?

[ This Message was edited by: BushBasher on 2005-08-31 06:11 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:34 am

BushBasher, your 'from' location needs amendment... you have absolutely no idea about 3rd party sales on this platform

there are 5-10 times more Scope systems than NOAHs and even in that context your numbers would be beyond any realistic scale.
500 units was the number Warp69 originally expected for his $99 plate reverb, he probably still didn't cross the 100 boundary after >1 year - and a quality reverb is something that EVERY Scope user needs (let alone THIS quality).

I really can't explain it, and obviously the situation for quality VSTis is similiar (except for some of the really big brands) - it makes absolutely no sense to me.

99 bucks is 3 tickets for wrong parking, it's barely enough for a great dinner for two, equals a bit more than one tank of fuel for an average car.
No disrespect about the value of money, but we're not talking 3rd world poverty here...

you CANNOT make any business based on software plugins (anymore?) - people buy (if at all) hardware. Period.
That's why we have the ASB boxes and that's why CWA puts their focus on different services than their classical (Scope) platform.

cheers, Tom
ps: I picked Warp as an example because he had the courage to publish his numbers

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:25 am

Tom,

On 2005-08-31 03:34, astroman wrote:
BushBasher, your 'from' location needs amendment... you have absolutely no idea about 3rd party sales on this platform

I know i was wrong with the figures Tom, but there's a difference between the plug-ins for Noah *hardware* & SFP plug-in sales.

there are 5-10 times more Scope systems than NOAHs and even in that context your numbers would be beyond any realistic scale.

Different situation mate. Scope has a barrel-load of plug-ins which is overflowing. in comparison to Noah.

500 units was the number Warp69 originally expected for his $99 plate reverb, he probably still didn't cross the 100 boundary after >1 year - and a quality reverb is something that EVERY Scope user needs (let alone THIS quality).

Sadly, money is the killer for musicians. Were it free or sold at a token price for beer money, he'd have sold 500 easily.

I really can't explain it, and obviously the situation for quality VSTis is similiar (except for some of the really big brands) - it makes absolutely no sense to me.

Developers talk of 'ROI', but then some talk of 'free' & 'OSI'. A balance could be the way.

99 bucks is 3 tickets for wrong parking, it's barely enough for a great dinner for two, equals a bit more than one tank of fuel for an average car.

I couldn't scrape together 99 bucks right now as i smashed my car up & just got it fixed. Most people are skint half the time.

you CANNOT make any business based on software plugins (anymore?) - people buy (if at all) hardware. Period.

The *machine* in question is the Noah, which as you know, is *hardware*. (& flexable hardware at that)

That's why we have the ASB boxes and that's why CWA puts their focus on different services than their classical (Scope) platform.

Yes & that's also why we have Noah, which *could* be the most flexible & powerfull piece of rack gear in the world.

I'm positive that John Bowen could sell 200-300 Noah plug-ins via CW & if their cut isn't too high he'd still get a moddest ROI for his efforts.

Now, if someone ported accross the modular, my figure would go the other way, as CW could sell *over* 500 modular plugs fo Noah, easily. In fact, they're mad if they don't.

[ This Message was edited by: BushBasher on 2005-08-31 06:12 ]

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:39 am

I've ammended that *from* location for you Tom

This time i'm telling the twooth

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:51 am

I remember John Bowen saying a while back that he didn' think the Modular could be ported to Noah, but does that mean something couldn't be created ? Maybe even a few semi-modular synths & effects would be possible.

I'm just gonna light heartedly continue this thread over a week or so to gauge what peoples thoughts are. You don't get if you don't ask, as they say

Also, i find it interesting that John & Spacef replied so quickly, so i'd like to urge anyone who is interested in Developing for Noah to post their thoughts here. Maybe we can get a little petition to CW going here

(sorry symbiote, i know you told me to shut up, but life's a bitch)

gustav · Post by **gustav** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:47 am

BushBasher :
Please - help us and quote correctly !
Look : its easy but you have to make this slash on the trailer tag

On 2005-08-31 04:51, BushBasher wrote:
I remember ...

thx!

_________________
<a href="http://hurpasard.free.fr"> my music </a>
<a href="http://peinturesurlenet.free.fr"> my paintings </a>

[ This Message was edited by: gustav on 2005-08-31 05:48 ]

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:55 am

hehe, i've been doin' that deliberately to piss Huub off, but he hasn't bitten, so i'll give in

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:13 am

trying to piss off hubird ? that's not very nice

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:31 am

legros,

trying to piss off hubird ? that's not very nice

Who, me?

No it's all in fun

Fixed BTW Gustav. Should read easier now.
Your telling off wasn't the one i was after, but it was good enough

So, back OT.

The sad lack of a Noah SDK. I'm sure Wolf etc would like an SDK for Noah & would be willing to develope for Noah if they could sell their apps & make *some* money from an unexplored avenue.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:10 am

no no, i think you are completely off track here bushbasher.. the main thing CW should concentrate on is to reprogram everything they have done using ada language... i mean this was the first object oriented language after all and they'd be paying a tribute to a great mathematician. Now where did that flying saucer signature go BB? i liked it

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:01 am

legros,

Now where did that flying saucer signature go BB? i liked it

<a href="http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... =31&0">Try here</a>

You get a mention

[ This Message was edited by: BushBasher on 2005-08-31 09:01 ]

wayne · Post by **wayne** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:20 am

The clear thing here is - BushBasher, you like to talk. A lot.

Noah is a very good piece of discontinued equipment. Find joy in that.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:10 pm

In particular, when people talk on a thread i've started i'll talk back to them, which is more than can be said for some.

On this particular topic i feel there is much to discuss & that certain developers may still comment with their opinions.

Anyway, my sincere apologies, i was simply under the impression that talking was a good thing here on PlanetZ.

Maybe i was wromg.

[ This Message was edited by: BushBasher on 2005-08-31 14:11 ]

Post by **hubird** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:43 pm

You was.
No need to over-exposure, you have knowledge enough.
Don't test me, you'll just loose me.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:57 pm

I made a *joke* about trying to piss you off Hubird. If you see it any other way, you are simply wrong & over-reacting.

Peace

BushBasher

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:13 am

I've sent you a PM Huub. Have a read when you've chilled out.

M