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additionally, for any blackbox users :
the chords often sound richer when detuning a few osc (2 or 3 of them) by very small amounts (visually, somwhere close to a milimeter on the Fine tune controls, or one pressure on the up or down arrow after selecting the fine tune - going upward is generally advised for "psycho acoustic" reasons (it sounds better , but may depend on intentions).
the LBH allow microtuning on their short sequences, as they are related to, but independant from, the played key (which acts as the root key of the sequence, all osc being tuned in relation t the played key (which corespond to tuning val=0 on the LBH)) (but with variable musical results according to the kind of osc used- pulsed oscillators (almost all oscillators available, will often sound unmusical and require filtering on peaks). Try on the spectral LBH for obvious examples (modify the PW of the saw or square osc to hear how detuning changes the musicality of the osc sound - for this , you need filtering or less pulsed waves such as sin or triangle in general). the Meta LBH will give you monthes of experimentations if you want to (waste your time) err... I mean, if you want to dive into such depths).
It is also a good idea to begin violin, fretless bass, oud, and I think I even saw a fretless guitar in a shop one day)
On a more practical field, there aremaster keyboards for arabic music, which include quarter tones on the keyboard, and they were made by roland (if i remember well). There are a lot of keyboard which allow quarter notes but it is true that it is not very practical for most keyboard players http://achamilton.co.uk/PA60.htm .
regards

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mehdi_T on 2005-01-02 08:17 ]</font>

personally i think Grok hit an important topic, though his way of starting it may be questionable
Equal temperament is a nasty compromise of intonation for modality.
We are used to it, but anyone who played an intrument not constrained to it knows what it is about
Ie one of residend Virus owners mentioned, that he is very pleased with Pure Intonation (dynamic retuning, similar to Hermode) and chords sound so much better when distorted...
As far as 'use the SDK, Luke' advice goes, i seem to remember a talk with a friendly dev, and it seems to me, that doing it with SDK would be a DSP killer, as it would require calculations on continuous freqency variables.
best way of doing this would be inside MVC, and that is solely CW domain for now...

btw, Rene of RGCaudio uses Hermode in his synths, so it cannot be that expensive to outsource
on a second thought i was wrong about MVC being solely CW domain, there are at least 2 developers who know how to implement unison, so maybe that would be a direction to ask

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Michu on 2005-01-02 12:09 ]</font>

I wonder if you could use something like Scala, which is a standalone tuning app, to do this? I'm pretty sure it can be set up to semd midi data (though you need to use a midi loopback normally - maybe with Scope you wouldn't though???)

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/

This is a list of current software (and some hardware) that Scala can work with or export too:

AnaMark softsynth
Big Tick Angelina, Rainbow and Rhino softsynths
Bitheadz Unity softsynth
Camel Audio Cameleon5000 softsynth
E-mu Morpheus
E-mu Proteus series
Ensoniq EPS/EPS16/ASR10
Ensoniq VFX
Fluidsynth (iiwusynth) software synthesizer
Korg M1, M1R octave tuning dump
Korg OASYS PCI soundcard (and softsynths supporting its .tun tuning textfile)
LinPlug Albino 2, Alpha 2 and CronoX softsynths
Max Magic Microtuner for Max/MSP and Pluggo softsynths
MIDI Tuning Standard (both bulk tuning dump and single-note tuning change, 3 byte), supported in Timidity and Audio Compositor, E-mu: Proteus 3, UltraProteus, Audity/Proteus 1000 and 2000 series, Virtuoso 2000, Proteus FX, Orbit, Planet Phatt, B3, Carnaval, Ensoniq: ASR-X, MR Rack, MR-61, MR-76, ZR-76, Turtle Beach: Multisound, Monterey, Maui, Tropez, Rio
MIDI Tuning Standard 2-byte octave tuning dump
MIDI Tuning Standard 1-byte octave tuning dump
MIDI to CSound
Native Instruments Absynth 2 (via .gly file)
Native Instruments FM7 and Pro-52
Native Instruments Reaktor (via semitones file, frequency file or NTF file)
rgc:audio z3ta+ softsynth
Roland GS & JV/XP families
Synapse Audio Orion Pro softsynth
Timidity and Audio Compositor MIDI to audio renderers
Tobybear Helios softsynth
VAZ Plus, 2001 and Modular softsynths VirSyn Cube, Cantor and TERA 2 softsynths
Yamaha DX7II/TX802
Yamaha SY77/TG77/SY99/VL-1/VL-7
Yamaha TX81Z/DX11/DX27/DX100/V50 (both octave and full keyboard bulk data)
Yamaha XG family
Yamaha VL70m


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kymeia on 2005-01-02 13:32 ]</font>

Hermode Tuning

rgc:audio software licenses Hermode Tuning (TM) Technology

Thanks Michu

interesting, I will try to implement tables for sdx/chord oscillators.... but it really doesn't work the same on all oscillators. with some of them, it is ugly.

Thanks Mehdi T. for your care.


Just for the record, Mr Arkadin had started a thread on this topic on PlanetZ more than one year ago, here (Devices/modules wishlist: Hermode Tuning Devices).

I know now that I have to buy the RGC:audio's z3ta+ wich also import directly Scala *.scl files (3000 different scales in *.scl format).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2005-01-02 20:14 ]</font>

According to this instructive article ('Even more IN tune'), Access, Waldorf and Native Instruments also have already implemented this Hermode thing.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2005-01-02 20:17 ]</font>

http://www.loopers-delight.com/LDarchiv ... 00209.html

Hermode tuning (HMT) was available in the Waldorf Microwave 1 and Q
as early as 1994.

The inventor and patent holder is Werner Mohrlok.

This is a great thread

Now, we need a sequencer that can play uneven time signatures along with it - a la Pousceno (Poustseno)

It certainly is a wide world of sound out there, and it's good to hear people pushing to bring electronic creation up to speed with traditional elements

Wayne, Cubase supports any time signature, and the raster just follows
I gues I'm missing something?

This one doesn't divide into numbers...

On 2005-01-02 21:19, wayne wrote:
This is a great thread

Now, we need a sequencer that can play uneven time signatures along with it - a la Pousceno (Poustseno)

It certainly is a wide world of sound out there, and it's good to hear people pushing to bring electronic creation up to speed with traditional elements

Hi, you could have said: 'beyond traditional elements' (as we've seen that the equal tempered scale is only a tradition from the 18th century and is a compromise resulting from the technologicals lacks of these pasts times)

It's time to be modern, isn't it?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2005-01-02 22:04 ]</font>

I think Wayne was talking about combining traditional ('ethnic') music with electronic music, like arab voices in techno, or chinese choires in drum'nbass ambient, etc.
Scaling both sources to each other makes sense then

Sure, this is utterly interesting!

And, aren't some techno songs in an indonesian scale?

Yes, the more you find out of the past, the clearer the future.

This tuning discrepancy has been dealt with in an interesting way in Macedonia and surrounding countries, where more recent instruments (brass, woodwind) coexist alongside more traditional things like gaida.

Brass players from these areas often employ a different fingering (3rd valve used by itself, etc) than is used in western music, to be in tune with the bagpipes.

Hubird, here's an example of the Poustseno - It's the straightest (least rubato) one i ever heard, though, and they change from village to village

On 2005-01-02 11:55, Michu wrote:
Ie one of residend Virus owners mentioned, that he is very pleased with Pure Intonation (dynamic retuning, similar to Hermode) and chords sound so much better when distorted...

I did mention that it sounds better, and it definately does, but I wouldn't consider it essential to my music. It simply avoids a 'beating' in the sound (essentially like that which we add with pulse width modulation or other modulation tricks) which is the result of the oscillators being slightly out of 'perfect' tune. The Virus in particular has a value that u can set from 0 to 100% 'perfect' tuning, I actually tend to use values closer to 50% than 100% 'corrected' tuning.

beautifull, tho I can't say anything about the time signature, so poor I am musically, compared with them even soloing over it

I can distract kind of a two chord modulation out of it, and that's what I would try to get out of it after forcing it to a 4/4 TS, if I'd use a 'sample' like this