PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

From what I can tell is this.

The sequencer component in scope is only a problem on xite-1 not the pci cards. So it's got to be something to do with the new hardware and scope being originally made for different and now old dsp architecture.

For me I have mattomat so I don't mind apart from the sequencer modules in modular not work.

I hope scope 6 is first and foremost all about xite hardware. As to have software working its best it has to let go of the old dsp hardware.

Re. Scope6 and Xite - Fair comment. And probably accurate.

Other than anything else, I'm more interested in seeing a DSP based sequencer audio engine, and the possibilities that opens than anything else. Getting rid of the native mixer and if there's a new one in ParseQ, what it looks and works like...

Thats worth waiting for, but it takes years to develop a decent audio sequencer.

dante wrote:MADI adaptor would be nice. As for the rest, Mattomat works and makes older step sequncers redundant, community developments with Modular could make STS obsolete. Non optimised devices for XITE - DAS have done a lot of work, eg the instance count of C350L's I can load is a great example, giving me the equivalent of an SLL mixer to work with.

Reading Eanna´s, Gary´s and now your post,- I have to mention,- even there are a lot of tips for workarounds here,- any S|C customer buying a XITE-1D or XITE-1 buys it bundled w/ software.
So, all the software coming w/ a XITE box should work, isn´t it ?
If a device doesn´t work at all or introduces significant bugs,- these have to be fixed and if that´s not possible because of old code, they have to be replaced by other devices doing the same work.

It can´t be, devices from XITE bundle will be discontinued because these are not fixable for whatever Windows beginning from XP and then, the customer has to buy replacements from 3rd party developers or wait for what the community delivers.
That´s absolutely not the way how business works and I really hope that won´t be the route for the future.

dante wrote: Zarg synths can stay on PCI and sound just as fantastic via ADAT.

Yes, but that´s not the point because ZARG isn´t S|C.
When ZARG decides not to invest any work into their devices anymore, that´s a 3rd party company´s decision and they never sold the hardware and won´t sell it in future.

Officially, S|C discontinued old hardware, so recommending usage of old Creamware hardware to run problematic former Creamware and now S|C devices on old hardware is some kind of a joke,- even the/your example was for ZARG devices.
In fact, no one can expect a new S|C customer, buying a piece of hardware, owns the old hardware or buys it @ebay in addition.

Count me in as one of the lucky guys who owns a SCOPE PCI 15DSP and a XITE-1,- but also this is only a halfassed story because it becomes more and more difficult to have a machine for old PCI cards up and running and there´s no guarantee Open SCOPE and/or ParseQ will support old and new hardware connected to only one and up to date machine in future.

dante wrote: Meanwhile WE are the advertising department ! So get to work and sell the platform....as it is now !!!

That sounds easier as it really is.
I tried to recommend XITE to several friends meanwhile, but when you have to explain what´s usable in 32Bit or 64Bit and need a lot of words,- the result is scepticism and they don´t invest the money.
Today, a new S|C customer expects everything coming w/ a XITE box works in a Windows 7 or 8 64Bit system and you cannot change that.

So, all the discussion about hardware expansions is 3rd row.
The most important is SCOPE 6 and all S|C devices coming bundled w/ XITE have to work then.
When this is done, new additional hardware makes sense and then should be available soon.

I´m sure, that is what S|C wants anyway and all what holds ´em back is cash.
They need investors.

We, the users, can advertise as much as possible and it won´t generate the money needed.
I think the kickstarter project is a very good direction.

It´s also a good idea to test all the devices in the shop for XITE compatibility and make a list like,-
"works only on PCI cards and w/ SCOPE 5.0 32Bit Win XP"
"works on XITE w/ SCOPE 5.1 32Bit, Win XP, Win 7"
"works on XITE w/ SCOPE 5.1 32Bit (Win XP/Win 7) and 64Bit (Win 7)"

That would help users making buying decisions for S|C optional and 3rd party devices and S|C doesn´t have to remove devices from the shop.
An easier way to get the keys would also be welcome.

Bud

@eanna
mattomat is dsp code__
none of the stock atoms being used;
check its latency by syncing to harware_
if it would run on host it would have latency_
--
the gui and some calculations run on host;
but thats the same with all scopedevices_
--
good vibes

Bud Weiser wrote: Yes, but that´s not the point because ZARG isn´t S|C.
When ZARG decides not to invest any work into their devices anymore, that´s a 3rd party company´s decision and they never sold the hardware and won´t sell it in future.

Officially, S|C discontinued old hardware, so recommending usage of old Creamware hardware to run problematic former Creamware and now S|C devices on old hardware is some kind of a joke,- even the/your example was for ZARG devices.
In fact, no one can expect a new S|C customer, buying a piece of hardware, owns the old hardware or buys it @ebay in addition.

Point is, problems have workarounds, many of which I've documented

http://www.hitfoundry.com/tsg/tsg_mast.htm

And a few which are, granted, harder to work around. But there's nothing there that makes me think we need developers spending time on rushing something out to impress a NAMM crowd, or fixing up 5.1 as opposed to working on Scope6.

I'd be quite happy for Scope 6 to take 3 years if nothing else was worked on rather than 5 years if time was spent on fixing old Creamware bugs at the same time, which S|C would be critisized for if they charged and loose money and time from Scope 6 if they did.

Yes, S|C business model IS different to many others but it is what it is. And if I think about what does work out-of-the-box instead of what doesn't - it's still light years ahead. And I would still recommend it to a new comer without feeling the need to 'gloss over' the issues or feel that I was telling a joke.

I'd tell em straight. 'Look mate, there's some bugs, but they don't get in the way anymore than any other bugs in Windows apps do and what it does is brilliant'.

Theres no joke in that statement, just honesty

Dante.

I don't quite agree with you.

2 things need to be addressed as high importance.

The sequencer component in scope on xite needs to work on all devices.

Sts samplers need to work in 64bit.

Those two things need sorting.

The samplers i don't believe are a selling point for SCOPE anymore and Native is VERY good at that now.
What if those samplers take a long time to redue? Too many man-hours for unprofitable things can be deadly. Too many man-hours for small things can send a company out of business, has any ever thought that the samplers needing too much time to recode might be the situation?. Sonic Core's focus has been on the major things and selling points (Modular 4, SDK 5, SCOPE 6, SDK 6, ETC) the depth and underlying architecture of the platform not correcting minor bugs and devices wich i'm sure are many due to SCOPE's complex nature. Obviously there is only so many man-hours. No one seems to consider that Sonic Core may have thought about fixing these things and realized they would just take too much time and resources. From my perspective they appear to be creating the building blocks so the community can create all the devices they want themselves not correcting every minor bug that steals man-hours from 2 coders who are already overloaded with work. Gary has listed many projects those two coders have to do already and has stated in the past how Holger even had to use his own money to further SCOPE this should tell people something about the current state and that Sonic Core simply can't do the things people want and can do what they see most important. Gary also stated the samplers may need a complete redueing. Sonic Core HAS been prioritizing all along to survive and can't give man-hours they don't have. I think most people are expecting more then they can give and need to see the situation for what it is. Those samplers may need to be completely recoded. I like the samplers myself and do believe they are important to SCOPE just not as important as the other things SonicCore is doing. I'm sure samplers, sequencers, etc will get addressed when they can AFFORD to address them.

It should state on the website the Samplers don't work properly in 64bit enviroment or even discontinue them for now if that will help manage user expectation. There is a much bigger picture then the samplers and the company trying to fulfill the big dream is small with too much work to do already, if they don't prioritize wisely they don't survive.

EDITED

It's as always, a lack of communication. If I would know what works and what doesn't I wouldn't have to spend hours trying to find a workaround and browsing forums for answers... It's simple, discontinue the non working plugins and communicate it properly and I will not complain.

Cheers,
Roman

Sounddesigner wrote:The samplers i don't believe are a selling point for SCOPE anymore and Native is VERY good at that now.
What if those samplers take a long time to redue? Too many man-hours for unprofitable things can be deadly. Too many man-hours for small things can send a company out of business, has any ever thought that the samplers needing too much time to recode might be the situation?. Sonic Core's focus has been on the major things and selling points (Modular 4, SDK 5, SCOPE 6, SDK 6, ETC) the depth and underlying architecture of the platform not correcting minor bugs and devices wich i'm sure are many due to SCOPE's complex nature. Obviously there is only so many man-hours. No one seems to consider that Sonic Core may have thought about fixing these things and realized they would just take too much time and resources. From my perspective they appear to be creating the building blocks so the community can create all the devices they want themselves not correcting every minor bug that steals man-hours from 2 coders who are already overloaded with work. Gary has listed many projects those two coders have to do already and has stated in the past how Holger even had to use his own money to further SCOPE this should tell people something about the current state and that Sonic Core simply can't do the things people want and can do what they see most important. Gary also stated the samplers may need a complete redueing. Sonic Core HAS been prioritizing all along to survive and can't give man-hours they don't have. I think most people are expecting more then they can give and need to see the situation for what it is. Those samplers may need to be completely recoded. I like the samplers myself and do believe they are important to SCOPE just not as important as the other things SonicCore is doing. I'm sure samplers, sequencers, etc will get addressed when they can AFFORD to address them.

It should state on the website the Samplers don't work properly in 64bit enviroment or even discontinue them for now if that will help manage user expectation. There is a much bigger picture then the samplers and the company trying to fulfill the big dream is small with too much work to do already, if they don't prioritize wisely they don't survive.

EDITED

There is this simple thing regarding business that even SC should be able to comprehend; If you sell a product it should be working as advertised. If there are bugs or malfunctions, these should be corrected. It's that simple. If a company stops fixing their errors, they die.

If they do not have a plan, a roadmap, or similar, they will not survive. If they keep up selling software without fixing bugs they will not survive. If they continue false advertising they will not survive. it's as simple as that.

There have been talk about a kickstarter for Scope. How will anyone even consider spending money on a project with no timeframe, no milestone plans, no bug support etc?

Even company of 3 persons should be able to implement some kind of organisation.

I think we all would accept any statement of intent from S|C on these issues. It's the not-knowing that seems to be the issue here.
It may be that some of these would be quick wins, that might be turned around quickly - thinking specifically of the Step Sequencer thing. Any roadmap of fixes should include as a factor a quantisation of the effort required for the fix. Anything that takes from a future development that will supply a lasting fix for the issues can reasonably be deprioritised - given the workarounds as described, it's no big swing...

I also think that these are small issues with respect to the platform as a whole, but here on PlanetZ, they take up a lot of 'column inches'. Those column inches will collapse if members could be referred to a statement and workaround approach from officialdom.

Scope offers soooo much, the depth and breadth of offering is so extensive, that the fact that these lesser issues get discussed repeatedly means that the fabulous stuff on offer sometimes doesn't...

If Scope was just Modular, it would be super cool. If Scope was just DAS and other Mastering/Processor devices, it would be great. If Scope was a Synth and Effect platform, it'd be a real contender in that market. If Scope was an A/D and D/A interface with onboard DSP, it would be one of the best. If Scope was a quality Summing Mixer tool, it would fill a gap in the market. If Scope was just interconnectivity and unification of streams, it would be super useful. If Scope was just the most powerful DSP platform that came 'bare' from the factory, that would be understandable. Scope is all of these things. And more.

....well put ....

@ sound designer.

You mention modular being a major selling point. Well on xite the step sequencer modules do not work.

So yes. Fixing the sequencer components on scope for xite should be a priority.

Sts not working in 64bit isn't so important. But still. I want to switch to 64 bit soon. And that is stopping me.

I personally believe that sc will fix these issues with scope6 rather than patch 5/5.1... Though it would be nice if they could patch scope 5/5.1...

next to nothing wrote:

Sounddesigner wrote:The samplers i don't believe are a selling point for SCOPE anymore and Native is VERY good at that now.
What if those samplers take a long time to redue? Too many man-hours for unprofitable things can be deadly. Too many man-hours for small things can send a company out of business, has any ever thought that the samplers needing too much time to recode might be the situation?. Sonic Core's focus has been on the major things and selling points (Modular 4, SDK 5, SCOPE 6, SDK 6, ETC) the depth and underlying architecture of the platform not correcting minor bugs and devices wich i'm sure are many due to SCOPE's complex nature. Obviously there is only so many man-hours. No one seems to consider that Sonic Core may have thought about fixing these things and realized they would just take too much time and resources. From my perspective they appear to be creating the building blocks so the community can create all the devices they want themselves not correcting every minor bug that steals man-hours from 2 coders who are already overloaded with work. Gary has listed many projects those two coders have to do already and has stated in the past how Holger even had to use his own money to further SCOPE this should tell people something about the current state and that Sonic Core simply can't do the things people want and can do what they see most important. Gary also stated the samplers may need a complete redueing. Sonic Core HAS been prioritizing all along to survive and can't give man-hours they don't have. I think most people are expecting more then they can give and need to see the situation for what it is. Those samplers may need to be completely recoded. I like the samplers myself and do believe they are important to SCOPE just not as important as the other things SonicCore is doing. I'm sure samplers, sequencers, etc will get addressed when they can AFFORD to address them.

It should state on the website the Samplers don't work properly in 64bit enviroment or even discontinue them for now if that will help manage user expectation. There is a much bigger picture then the samplers and the company trying to fulfill the big dream is small with too much work to do already, if they don't prioritize wisely they don't survive.

EDITED

There is this simple thing regarding business that even SC should be able to comprehend; If you sell a product it should be working as advertised. If there are bugs or malfunctions, these should be corrected. It's that simple. If a company stops fixing their errors, they die.

If they do not have a plan, a roadmap, or similar, they will not survive. If they keep up selling software without fixing bugs they will not survive. If they continue false advertising they will not survive. it's as simple as that.

There have been talk about a kickstarter for Scope. How will anyone even consider spending money on a project with no timeframe, no milestone plans, no bug support etc?

Even company of 3 persons should be able to implement some kind of organisation.

What your stating is your opinion and not necessarily fact far as S|C dieing if they don't fix those bugs first. Bugs have become part of the nature of the beast in this computer music age, it's just a matter of how serious the bugs are to each individual user. Native daw's and all complex software i'm aware of has bugs and often longtime bugs that go uncorrected. And no one said bugs will not get fixed just that SonicCore is prioritizing. They can't do what they can't do no matter how bad some people want things done their way. In my eyes your logic suggests they'll die no matter what path they take since man-hours and resources are very limited, meaning if they spend years correecting all of their bugs and creamware bugs they'll die from not bringing anything new to the platform of significance (no XITE-1, modular 4, SCOPE 6, ETC) and if they bring new creations to the market without fixing bugs they'll die wich is what you state. But none of the bugs are major show-stoppers and i'm sure SonicCore knows this so imv it makes sense to develope the new and fix what you can when you can.. Many of SCOPE's bugs are from creamware era and truly SonicCore had the right to not fix them and simply discontinue the old pci cards or just sell a Wndows 7 driver update with no bug fixes, no new devices, etc it really was their choice since those cards were bought from Creamware and the future of those cards is whatever SonicCore deemed it to be.

Regarding releasing new software verses fixing bugs; the fact is SonicCore has'nt released much of anything yet. Just a couple bug fixes and Modular 4. They have not released their own platform yet and its been 6 years, they only updated Creamware's platform to version 5 wich i'm sure was released to just get users on Windows 7 while they code other things. Let them released their own platform and any other major release wich is long over-due before holding their feet to the fire (what you want may come with that release). Basically let them release something first. Give them a fair chance. If its taking this long to release their own platform then obviously they can't do everything everyone wants and simply have to do what truly is most important first. The long time is a indicater of the situation, If anything slow-development will kill them if they were to die imo. From what i read Open-scope will allow for easier coding of the platform wich should make bug fixing easier, and it allows for the community to be envolved more in the development thus it seems to be the best path to solving all of SCOPE's problems with one fell swoop.

You say they'll die from not fixing bugs but so far facts have stated otherwise, SonicCore is not a new company anymore but have survived for 6 years without filing bankruptcy, Creamware filed twice in 8 years. They are doing something right since they are still here surviving for a long period of time now. One has to give Holger some credit for having some intelligence and being brave for developing dedicated dsp platform in the age of i7 computers, freeware, cracks and low audio quality acceptance. If SCOPE is good enough for you it is good enough for new commers, you have'nt left yet have you ...

+1

I second NtN's statement from the classical 'business as it should be' perspective...
as well as I second SD's interpretion from the 'what we got in real world' angle
if bug fixing would be a point, then Microsoft would have quit business decades ago and Apple had never released OSX
that Scope always had a kind of hardtime (in it's main target group) is due to the fact that there are no cr*cks around

cheers, Tom

To much feedback (ups) guys, topic is NAMM 2013

You mean like the wireless controller I'll wear as a necklace to do program changes in Modular and Solaris while I pretend I am Iron Man.......?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... saptCLQZU4

dante wrote: Theres no joke in that statement, just honesty

Dante,- see my post above as a general statement and not as "my opinion".
I myself, I´m able to work w/ XITE and SCOPE 5.1 in Win XP 32 Bit.

But the reality is,- you won´t sell workarounds.

If S|C want´s to sell, let´s say, a batch of 1000 XITEs, a fully working set of bundled devices is essential.
There are several ways to realise that and one of these is ditch all the stuff which is problematic in that bundle for the time being, then come up w/ updates incl. bug fixes, optimizations and new devices.
To do that, S|C needs investors.

As an example,- there was the small italian company KeyB, manufacturing DSP based Hammond clones in italy for more than a decade. Niche product.
One day, they gave that clone Joey de Francesco who became a partner then because he liked that gear and used it succsessfully live.
The 1st result was, Studiologic manufactured the NUMA organ using KeyB engine which became a mass product.
Now, KeyB builds a manufacturing plant in St.Louis for their hi-end products.

S|C should (or must,- my opinion) team up w/ someone using their technology in a mass product to generate money while continue developement for their hi-end product line.

In fact, when John Bowen teamed up w/ S|C coders for Solaris,- that was a step in the direction, but also Solaris keeps to be a niche product and most potential buyers of musical instruments don´t even know what´s inside.
On top, it´s a pre-order product and reading the forum tells me some guys now wait for about 4 years for their pre-ordered Solaris,- and it´s one of the expensive synths in the market.
To be true, if someone tells me I have to pre-order something, deposite money and than have to wait only a year for the product arriving, I won´t do that.

There must be something cheaper coming up and being available in shops around the world.
Every manufacturer knows how hard it is to sell something more expensive than USD 3K list price.
That also rules for the highest end keyboard instruments out there.

It doesn´t matter what we, being users already, think about that, because it´s simply a fact the market itself sets the terms.

That said, I go on here w/ XITE-1 and I love it.
Next purchase in february,- Modular IV upgrade.

Bud

katano wrote:To much feedback (ups) guys, topic is NAMM 2013

True True!

New(old) Buchla Easel.Already saving up for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PR7BtzPpXM