Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

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Bud Weiser
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Re: Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

Post by Bud Weiser »

Maybe ...

SCOPE 5.1 32Bit ASIO worked better than Scope 7 32 and 64Bit,- at least on my machines.
I guess 64Bit changed much, although the driver kept being 32Bit (AFAIK, it did).
I´m not an expert in this department,- so I might be wrong.

Doesn´t matter anyway for the time being,- I just wait for SCOPE v8 beta to come and see.

:wink:

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pranza
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Re: Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

Post by pranza »

Incorrect anyway, with Scope 3.1c the driver properly supported multithreaded Windows environments as far as the driver is concerned.
if it's incorrect why then if I set affinity of the DAW exe to CPU0 it improves matters with clicking if there are more things running in the background? this happens with old Digidesign ASIO drivers, Scope ASIO drivers, but not with newer Lynx (PCI) ASIO or current DANTE ASIO virtual soundcard drivers, for example?

or did you mean "properly supported" that it doesn't crash windows in multithreaded environment? if so, then yes, it doesn't crash windows but i'm sure it doesn't use any of the possible advantages that became available in last fifteen years either.

Scope ASIO blue screens with some software and doesn't work at all with other - but that's for 5.1, not sure of the v7. I think Native Instruments stuff and also newer Live! versions are a no go with it...
and it's time to stop thinking 32bit - new stuff is not being released in 32bit anymore!!! "works on 32bit systems" is the same as "works on windows 9x / XP" now. sfp v3 worked on that and it was cool, now it's time to make it work on what's being used nowadays.

all that said i still use it as XTC device under other card's ASIO and also as a nice secondary card for I/O and routing, vADAT stuff, also as a signal generator/tester (kudos to Celmo for excellent devices!). this comes at a price because i can't go past windows 8 with that - blue screens await, at least if we talk vDAT. XTC also works just with older DAWs - perhaps because of the old VST standard or what not - that's also an issue as jbridge can't fill the gap anymore.

this summer i will go win 11 - can't stick with win 8 anymore, as new and must have software doesn't work there anymore.

it would be GREAT if whoever develops Scope now would look at it - these people in the nineties did an excellent job but it needs some attention twenty years later - not some background colour and changes (sfp 3 looked better than 5, 5 looked better than 7 and so on... why fix something that's not broken - maybe fix what's actually broken instead). you say there is something about desktop compositing, ok... still i see v3 style blueish windows popping up for presets and even the old mouse pointers taking over at some settings panels - so cool - they are still alive and that theme could stay - no?

Vinco, for example does not have alternative anywhere - hardware 1176, UAD, TC plugins are still different and none of them has what Vinco has, and damn that's good what Vinco has.

Scope is a great platform but it has a minefield to be sorted - it's not window borders, background colours or new plugins that is crucial - the crucial thing is that it keeps working on current systems.

PCI to whatever bridges are not a problem these days... maybe it would be possible to make an usb-c (it has pcie lanes, right) to PCI extension contraptions with Pericom chips on them and just continue making and selling those old style PCI cards... xite prices are a bit prohibitive, there is no 'entry' point to warm new people up and get them into Scope.
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Re: Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

Post by astroman »

That Scope minefield is quickly sorted by a bunch of Adat connections, as mentioned numerous times ;)
RME provides a Digiface with 32 io channels in the $400 range to be connected to any current Mac/Win system.

You (and me) cannot expect anyone to be that stupid to transfer the old VDat environment.
It made perfect sense when developed (there were massive archives on digital tape), but that‘s long gone.
I‘m a big fan of the Alesis control scheme, but the majority of current users would call it ridiculous and request a completely different (DAW based) functionality.
On the other hand DAWs (on current hardware) are way more powerful that around Y2K, so for most users there isn‘t even the need of an independent recording system.

Similar with STS samplers. Today it‘s NI Kontakt and not Akai S anymore. Why invest sparse development resources into products that apply to probably 1% of potential users only (not just current Scope owners).

As a Scope users it‘s really simple to retain the old functionality and add whatever modern stuff you like.
My system is connected to a PT5 Mix24 and a MacMini M1 and an iPad, plus a 19“ rack and a MPC4K.
Any part can be routed to whatever destination and arbitrary fx chains can be setup.
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Re: Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

Post by pranza »

hmm so you say we should say goodbye to Scope ASIO because they can't code it properly now and stick to SFP - okay,

so be it, but then again, in SFP things don't work also - Osiris XP - still being offered on S|C page for $600 (no x64 support), vDAT, even if it is old, it might be exactly why someone's keeping Scope - to rip ADAT tapes 1:1 (there is no other way afaik).

drop all of it in favor of what then? as you mentioned there are alternatives, there always were.
should i buy ADAT option for Symphony for $1500 and bunch of lightpipes because they can't code ASIO driver or make XTC work although they could so 20 years ago? should i also keep a x32 computer with winxp somewhere also? but what's the new scope stuff about, then? it's just ever diminishing selection of the old stuff, it seems. we keep losing plugins and features with every new version... v10 could happen to be just an empty window with note that Scope is detected and working ;)

v5 was the height of a revival - stuff was actually ported. after that, it just started getting dropped in favor that something else started to work.

i wonder where UAD would be now if they offered dsp plugins which worked only on 32 bit and old DAWs or something blue screened.
basically they even haven't caught up with scope functionality yet, although they're getting closer... 20 years after :) the key difference - their stuff is so stable, it's more stable and usable than native - works on anything, anyhow. i rather buy Sonnox plugins from UAD than Sonnox these days - because they work on more DAWs, especially old DAWs - flawlessly!
i imagine if UAD were "aah, let's not make that plugin as no one would be using it anyway"... "aah, let's leave that x32 only, we first released it in 2001, there are alternatives, company B just made that thing"... sounds strange, innit? doesn't sound like UAD. and that's why they get the money.
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Re: Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

Post by valis »

You’re conflating too many things that are not as connected as you seem to think, I’ll respond later.
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astroman
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Re: Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

Post by astroman »

No need to drop all... VDat and the STS Samplers are at least 90% of native Win code, but an old version.
(dunno which exactly, but certainly not easy to port to any current Win environment)
These CAN be run in 32bit Win7 if you like (or need) them, on bargain hardware. There are tons of outdated motherboards.
Your Win10/11 machine just needs some Adat io.

I don‘t think VDat and it‘s software control panel is required to transfer plain Adat tapes.
Maybe if the tapes have „sequenced“ content driven by timecode or you‘d have to manually arrange sections after transfer, I don‘t have any experience with this.
Otherwise you just hit play on the Adat machine and record on your TosLink connected DAW.

The VDat system is really sophisticated and contains a lot of expert knowledge about these tapes... and that knowledge is required to port the software, regardless of the target system.
But seriously: who is still running such an Adat setup ?
Imho (as much as I‘m a fan of VDat) a port would simply be a waste of precious resources.
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Re: Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

Post by djmicron »

pranza wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 7:50 am i wonder where UAD would be now if they offered dsp plugins which worked only on 32 bit and old DAWs or something blue screened.
basically they even haven't caught up with scope functionality yet, although they're getting closer... 20 years after :) the key difference - their stuff is so stable, it's more stable and usable than native - works on anything, anyhow. i rather buy Sonnox plugins from UAD than Sonnox these days - because they work on more DAWs, especially old DAWs - flawlessly!
i imagine if UAD were "aah, let's not make that plugin as no one would be using it anyway"... "aah, let's leave that x32 only, we first released it in 2001, there are alternatives, company B just made that thing"... sounds strange, innit? doesn't sound like UAD. and that's why they get the money.
UAD discontinued the v1 cards several years ago and now they are going native before it's too late to keep their audience. Also the windows driver is not that perfect.

Scope PCI cards are from the 90s, from a company called Creamware that doesn't exists anymore, many of us are using a dedicated computer to run the cards in a 32 bit system in real time over ADAT and midi and have some fun with VDAT and samplers.
If we exclude the problems with samplers, Vdat and some delay module, they works ok with 64 bit, but I don't see what can we pretend for a product that is 25 years old. No one company in this world provides support for such an old computer product.
In my opinion if we like a product that is so old, we have to adapt and find the best way to use it.
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Bud Weiser
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Re: Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

Post by Bud Weiser »

pranza wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:16 am
PCI to whatever bridges are not a problem these days... maybe it would be possible to make an usb-c (it has pcie lanes, right) to PCI extension contraptions with Pericom chips on them and just continue making and selling those old style PCI cards... xite prices are a bit prohibitive, there is no 'entry' point to warm new people up and get them into Scope.
Well, I´ve read your posts and understand,- you don´t own a XITE-1 or XITE-1D,- correct ?

If yes,- YOU have to accept that the Sonic Core hardware product IS XITE,- period.

As an owner of a PCI card system, praise Sonic Core you still get support and are able to use w/ computers running Win XP up to Win 11.
You also have to accept PCI DSP hardware from 90´s, related application and in the past coded DSP devices using the host computers processor partially as a co-processor and it´s RAM (some do !), still run best on a 32Bit WinXP-Win7 system.
In addition you have to understand such SCOPE system is TRUE realtime processing and will NEVER run perfect w/ any PCI to PCIe extension device.
Many users tried already and got more or less mediocre results,- and GaryB repeated himself for several times on this.

So, when you don´t want to sell your PCI card based SCOPE system, don´t want to buy a XITE-1 (or cannot afford),- the very best way to run your SCOPE system IS an older machine running WinXP or Win 7 !
SCOPE DSP devices simply don´t care about 32 or 64Bit,- they sound the same on both systems.
What has to be updated all the time to be on par w/ the Windows versions is partially the SCOPE application and the ASIO driver.
WHEN you run SCOPE standalone on a dedicated machine,- you don´t need the ASIO driver at all, but it will be installed always.
To get rid off, you simply don´t place any ASIO modules in your projects and you´re fine.
You´re able to record any real musical instrument via SCOPE and VDAT,- all hardware electronic keyboards, MIDI modules, electric- and acoustic guitars and bass, organs, electromagnetic and acoustic pianos, drums and vocals,- just like working w/ tape,- and VDAT recordings sound good.
You have the GUI of an ADAT recorder (a device I never used !),- but VDAT is a TRUE direct to disc 32Bit integer recording device w/ no ASIO driver in between which is an advantage !
For me, it´s also welcome for digitizing my tapes recorded w/ my Fostex-R8 reel-to-reel MTR,- and I can play and don´t need all the feature bloated sequencer/editor crap urgently.
Sometimes I wonder why I bought all the DAW apps ´cause I possibly use a very few % of their features only.

With stock SCOPE 5(.1), you already got a s##tload of devices and modular modules which were optional in SCOPE 4 times.
They all sound good and work almost perfect when using a dedicated SCOPE host computer.
A Intel Pentium Dual Core D945D processor still runs in my WinXP 32Bit rackmount DAW machine and it´s already kind of overkill for SCOPE 5.1 32Bit "standalone".
It´s an advantage WinXP is an OS still and not a service like Win10 and Win11.
Win 7 is somewhere in between, but a good choice too.
I also run SCOPE 7 32Bit on a HP server w/ Win7 Pro SP1 installed.
Advantage w/ WinXP and Win7,- you can forget Windows updates (and SCOPE didn´t need ´em anyway)

And yes, I do want the STS sampler working,- and it works in 32Bit systems.
You know,- when I look at my hardware samplers from the past,- 4 AKAI, 1 EMU and 2 Oberheim DPX-1,- and related SCSI drives (HDD, MO and Syquest),- all consuming power and occupie 30+ HU in racks,- I´m happy to be able to use my AKAI library on STS samplers running in SCOPE, sounding almost identical and only need a single midi-tower or 4HU rackmount case.

I converted EMU and AKAI libraries for "modern" sample players/samplers,- 1st was Steinberg Halion and then NI Kontakt using CD-xtract application which also converts to many other formats, .sts included,- and the results for Halion and Kontakt were mediocre, required lots of post editing and optimizations to make it only slightly better.
Don´t forget, most sample players/samplers are products designed for selling "soundpacks", which is a lot of income for leading software manufacturers.
And NO,- I don´t need all their soundpacks at all.
I know because I´m a NI Komplete Ultimate Collectors Edition user since I made the mistake buying at a discount.
I had to learn,- to fully use all their soundpacks, I better buy their hardware device "Maschine" in addition,- but I didn´t.
And some of their sampled guitar libraried doesn´t allow to be played on keys like I want,- instead these are simply switches triggering pre-programmed chords and patterns and I´m unable to play any single line, solo-runs or riffs like I want.

Last but no least,- it´s true there were and are still bugs in SCOPE up to the latest version and these should be fixed if possible but ...
when you´re not satisfied w/ SCOPE and how it runs in general on your PCI DSP hardware inside YOUR DAW host computer and how YOU use it for the time being,- you still have several options:

1.)
using 2 machines,- 1 for SCOPE and the other for native,- side-by-side and connected via ADAT and MIDI
2.)
sell your SCOPE gear and look elsewhere ...
3.)
be patient and wait for SCOPE 8,- ASIO driver has priority a.t.m.
4.)
in the meantime save for XITE and buy one together w/ SCOPE 8 once the software is been tested on your PCI card SCOPE system.
(you might sell your SCOPE PCI after you bought XITE-1 and do a key-transfer from PCI the XITE for optional and 3rd party devices)
5.)
Be more patient and wait for Sonic Core "Joana" viewtopic.php?t=37387,- just because I guess it might do what you want,- using "Joana" as the "soundcard" and run plugins (DSP devices) in your prefered native DAW application running on a Windows, MacOS or LInux machine.
Similar to former XTC mode,- so to say ...

You can type endles complaints here, but they won´t speed up anything.
Because this is not a Sonic Core support forum, they don´t read all the posts here.
Small company, not much staff,- so too time consuming.

´n uff said ...

:)

Bud
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Re: Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

Post by garyb »

use win10 all the time. yes, a couple of things don't work, but everything that i love about Scope works, so for me, it's great.
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Bud Weiser
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Re: Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

Post by Bud Weiser »

garyb wrote: Wed Jul 05, 2023 6:05 am use win10 all the time. yes, a couple of things don't work, but everything that i love about Scope works, so for me, it's great.
Yes, same here and w/ the laptop.
Don´t wanna miss SCOPE,- cards and XITE w/ PCIe card and cardbus alternately !

Nonetheless, still waiting for new ASIO driver since I signed up for beta test team after Holger´s announcement.

:)

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Re: Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

Post by pranza »

scope's asio was peculiar even fifteen years ago - espec. with newer software.
i didn't go past scope v5.1 to see how good or bad it has gotten because it seemed that XTC capability was castrated out - a crucial thing for a dsp processor card - an interface with a DAW - taken out, essentially leaving it as a modular playground _only_.

now i managed to get scope 5.1 to work on windows 11 / 13th gen intel in XTC mode with not installing asio fully (no scope asio driver visible). that way i can use non peculiar ASIO from other cards AND scope's dsp plugins through VST (sync plate required)!
too bad the solution is wonky - requires certain state of windows updates and no reboots after it starts working - so i don't want to publish it in this state, especially when everyone is so happy without it ;p
VDAT works too, by the way.

now back to the original topic somewhat – to avoid pops and clicks be sure to prevent core parking https://gigperformer.com/docs/ultimate- ... rking.html
it's very relevant to the newest processors, it really does help unlike some other shoot-yourself-in-the-foot-make-your-pc-slow disablement tweaks.
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Re: Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

Post by valis »

Core parking doesn't really exist now, you can simply use the windows based power profiles and set it to 'high performance' which sets the cpu to stay 100% available.
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Re: Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

Post by pranza »

if windows build 22h2 and 13th gen cpus are not “now”, i don't know what “now” is...:)

i've set it to high performance and min and max % to 100 and still it showed many cores as “parked” and had latency spikes in less than three minutes at around 17 ms.
now it's under 4 at all times even if some big stuff is running in the background.
the website describes how to make core parking setting visible (by default it's nowhere to be found) and then how to adjust it.
indeed, after doing that none of the cores are being shown as “parked” and clicks are gone.
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Re: Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

Post by valis »

Glad you got it working, I have a 2015 era XEON and turned all of that off, works fine here. So that may be system specific.
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Re: Scope PCI cards clicks & pops - Windows 7 & Cubase 10

Post by pranza »

yes, newer windows and processors which have insane amount of cores have new tricks..:)
i was seduced to go old multiple xeon way instead of new 'consumer' system and glad i chose the new one - old are OK but the new is so much faster. and eats up less electrical power for the job done. (and here we go again about Mac M series..;)
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