God is not great: How religion poisons everthing

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:43 pm

the FBI is following you.

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:47 pm

Shroomz wrote:
garyb wrote:ALL of the bible quotes you might make are based on suspect translations of much older text.
Suspect indeed from what I've read, but you can't believe everything you read!!

true. but i was refering to specific quotes he has a problem with. you can't take things out of context and expect the original meaning to remain. since the bible is many books put together as one, taking things out of context is a very easy thing to do. never the less, none of this has anything to do with whether or not god exists.

braincell, no offense, but you can't even prove that you exist, especially if the proof will have to be done on an internet forum.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:00 pm

This is an assumption we make based on the current state of artificial intelligence. It's unlikely that I am a computer but I guess it would be possible one day to fool people like that. We have to make a lot of assumptions. You assume there is a god. Perhaps based on what you were taught.

I know someone who is mentally ill who oddly enough used to think the FBI was following him but to help him. Now with better medication, he thinks that god is "holding him down", preventing him from functioning as most people do. My theory is that he switched his belief because it seems more rational. A god with magic powers is thought to exist by most people.

I told him "God isn't holding you down. You are sick" and he said "God is holding me down because I am sick".

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:07 pm

Didn't mean to dig you up out of context Gary. Actually, I thought that the quote was a great example of what makes so many people querie or question the fundamental legitimacy of christianity as we now know it.

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:19 pm

well, i see what you are saying, but some writing on a bulletin board does not make a real person. you don't even have to be a bot what do you really know about the state of AI. if the NSA developed true AI, do you think they'd tell you(or me) about it? anyway, you don't have to be a bot to not exist in reality. remember lonleygirl15? possibly, you're just my imagination and i'm just raving right now...

sometimes those who are mentally ill are telling the truth, sometimes not. i'll tell you this much, however, there are NO drugs that "cure" mental illness. just ones that make people more controllable, or "functional"(less a pain in the ass). from my experiences with a 33 year old child, i'd say demonic possession is just as likely as brain chemistry imbalance as the cause of mental illness. he sure acts like the drugs only tranquilize the demon. the bad ideas never go away, much like the bad ideas that the "normal" people carry, his are very logical if you see from his point of veiw. you'd probably come to similar conclusions if you had seen what he saw. in fact, mental illness is quite common and i'd say NO ONE in the civilized world was truly sane, but that's me. when i talk to you like you're a crazy man, you've got to understand, i'm not practicing some kind of freudian cocaine induced one-upmanship(freud was just another stupid junkie, but he's famous and now his ideas have infected society in a way as bad as any religion).

none of this has anything to do with the existance of god, however.

you say no, that's perfectly fine with me. if there is a god or not, your opinion won't change that one bit(neither will mine).

let's put it another way just for fun.
1. you say there's no god, but i say there is and in the long run it doesn't matter what i do to please the god and so i die and it never mattered.
2. you say there is a god and i say there isn't, but unfortunately it matters if i get with this god or not and i never did.
which scenario am i the most f@cked in?

kinda like another thing that can't be proven as a fact, that there'll be a tomorrow. if you live like there's no tomorrow and then there is, it's a real drag, but if you live like there's a tomorrow and then there isn't, then it didn't matter anyway, no harm done.....

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:02 pm

Shroomz wrote:Didn't mean to dig you up out of context Gary. Actually, I thought that the quote was a great example of what makes so many people querie or question the fundamental legitimacy of christianity as we now know it.

yeah, i know, it's cool. i wasn't refering to your quoting of me(though it works the same way..thanks for noting that

), but to people's habit of using bible quotes to prove a point about god or whatever...

personally, i find plenty to doubt about christianity as we now know it, but i respect christians in general, even if i don't like many of their church's doctrines, especially when the person really is trying to be an upright man, as close to that ideal of Jesus willing to take on the punishment of all men for their evil, to save others from suffering. there are many truly beautiful things and truths about existance in religion(or else it couldn't hold the key people needed to propagate it). unfortunately, Religion(capital R) is a tool of the state, the king(all of the original big religions are state religions). the community in religion is purely human, however and is worthy of us all, and i thank god we can care for each other and share that.

but this has nothing to do with god existing or not....

an OT aside:
as an american, rights exist only because of religion. since all men were seen to be made by god, it was said that god, not the government owned them and granted their rights by virtue of the man's existance. with the seperation of church and state, if you could show that you were a free man(the horrible compromise) americans were in a better position than in the past where god is the state, and the king is either god's representitive or avatar. this meant that the state owed allegiance to the people, not the other way around(a thought that's been returned to the nether world in the present time). just a practical note, with god gone, americans have nothing to guarantee their rights. the best current alternative would be to be party to the universal declaration of rights(a secular alternative) which only guarantees rights to people as long as those right don't violate the purposes or principles of the united nations, a much poorer reality. funny how the U.N.'s secular reality smells so much like the old omnipotent state. maybe there's a political advantage to eliminating god in the 21st century...

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:24 pm

I'd be interested in seeing the reality where everyone full-heartedly believed in their religeon & stuck to it, not change it to suit themselves & their political aspirations as has been done in christianity over the past 2000 odd years.

I do agree, that everyone's beliefs should be respected. I do in fact respect everyone's beliefs myself. They just don't all make sense to me. In fact most of them really do seem insane if you want to talk about sanity Gary. Some might say the insane are the sane ones though!!

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:51 pm

Bingo,

Here is a great woman:

http://www.atheists.org/

Post by **garyb** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:48 am

the atheists bible quotes are hilarious...and wrongly quoted, but that's ok, there are discrepancies in scripture and it's good to question them.

nice masonic logo. funny how the opposition looks so much like what it opposes.

also, a quote:
"we say: "Go ahead! Read the bible, and the Koran, and the other numerous books which claim to be divinely inspired. Study religious history...and then decide for yourself!""

soooo-they're not saying there's no god, just that they don't believe in the popular one. the "official" athiests' club linked by braincell is very different in tone from the rest of this discussion. their main complaint seems to be with the divinity of scripture rather than a hatred of the idea of god. if the idea is one of hating untruth, that might be seen as admirable. if the idea is strict nay-saying, then it's just petty and small minded. the "official" atheists suggest studying the subject carefully which is good advice, much better than what atheists have shown in this thread(just saying...). nowhere do they suggest being rude or disruptive except in defense of their right to abstain. i've got no problem with that. whether they're right or wrong it's their own problem. they do a good job pointing out the problems of language, but again, they are not really opposed to god, just the popular one.

in any case, either side of this debate is a house of cards. there are still no arguments that truly discredit god, just some claims made about god. i don't see how that link really applies to that lying pig christopher hitchins who says the great killings are all the result of religion(he's probably right if he's speaking of the cult of the horned god that he belongs to), while he calls for war in Iraq. again, he was the main "alternative" voice calling for sadaam's ouster, supporting the bush whitehouse. that is irrefutable.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:53 am

What came before the Big Bang? What caused the Big Bang to happen?

There is a lot that conventional rational science does not know and cannot even theorize about.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:18 am

darkrezin wrote:What came before the Big Bang? What caused the Big Bang to happen?
There is a lot that conventional rational science does not know and cannot even theorize about.

True. However, none of the scientific hypotheses assume the existence of a supernatural being.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:23 am

stardust wrote:
BingoTheClowno wrote:
manfriday wrote: what proof is there that God doesn't exist?
I have not seen any. I'd be quite interested to see this proof.
There are plenty.
First, we know that god did not create the Universe. The Universe was created with the Big Bang. The Earth was not created in 7 days but it was created in billions. You claim he created the man in his own image but we are not ominpresent and omniscient, thus that's a lie (not to mention as whole this whole notion is retarded). And on and on. What you chose to believe in is pure folklore.
You dont know nothing about Big Bang Bingo.
Again you abuse scientific theories for your ideology of perceived superiority.

The big bang theory is a theory.
It is not a history book for charlatans like you demonstrate here to be one.
It is one of the current well accepted models to explain a certain portion of empiric physics results.
There are for example other theories like the the cyclic universe from Steinhardt Turok that even better fits the current (the current !!) perception in physics.

Argumenting on your level would immediately ask what was before the planck era and who or what triggered the big bang ?

You dont know nothing about cosmology and it's limitations.
And you abuse again physics to spread your doctrine.

Your other proofs are often discussed in the philosophy of religions.
You cant stand the Argumentum ad Ignorantiam even if you try to ignore it.

Thanks for immediately approving your hypocrisy.

Are you serious? Because this is pretty retarded and I don't know how else to approach it. I abuse physics? You're a lunatic.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:31 am

BingoTheClowno wrote:
darkrezin wrote:What came before the Big Bang? What caused the Big Bang to happen?
There is a lot that conventional rational science does not know and cannot even theorize about.
True. However, none of the scientific hypotheses assume the existence of a supernatural being.

But it's a pretty fucking huge question, let's face it. Just because science hasn't assumed something to be true yet doesn't make it meaningless or rubbish. Like was once the case with sub-atomic particles such as quarks, it's simply not quantifiable yet, like many other less obviously physical concepts in our reality. Take the concept of 'love' - does it exist? How do you measure it? Does the fact that you cannot measure it make it any less useful or beneficial?

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:43 am

BingoTheClowno wrote: What the fuck do you know about my life? Do you know me personally? What would you call your generalisations besides presumptious bullshit?

I must also point out that for someone so aggressively defensive about being judged, you make a hell of a lot of judgments and insults about others and their beliefs (what else is calling people 'lunatics' and 'demented'?). The exact same words could be turned on you. You'd be a lot more deserving of them too. Sorry to say it, and contrary to what you will probably think I don't take any pleasure in saying this - the fact that you cannot realise this unfortunately (for you) reveals how shallow and ignorant you are.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:59 am

darkrezin wrote:What came before the Big Bang? What caused the Big Bang to happen?

There is a lot that conventional rational science does not know and cannot even theorize about.

I have always contended that god was invented by tribal elders to answer questions that could be not be answered. People are very curious and for some reason they need to have an answer for everything. They also can't accept mortality. To say loved ones are in heaven is comforting. To have an answer for every question is comforting.

It is so easy to say god did it or that this was the intention of god.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:02 am

darkrezin wrote:
BingoTheClowno wrote: What the fuck do you know about my life? Do you know me personally? What would you call your generalisations besides presumptious bullshit?
I must also point out that for someone so aggressively defensive about being judged, you make a hell of a lot of judgments and insults about others and their beliefs (what else is calling people 'lunatics' and 'demented'?). The exact same words could be turned on you. You'd be a lot more deserving of them too. Sorry to say it, and contrary to what you will probably think I don't take any pleasure in saying this - the fact that you cannot realise this unfortunately (for you) reveals how shallow and ignorant you are.

That's stupid. We are talking about religion not about me. Attacking me personally with false allegations denotes lack of integrity and most of all your inability to respond rationaly to most of the posts.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:09 am

braincell wrote:
darkrezin wrote:What came before the Big Bang? What caused the Big Bang to happen?

There is a lot that conventional rational science does not know and cannot even theorize about.

I have always contended that god was invented by tribal elders to answer questions that could be not be answered. People are very curious and for some reason they need to have an answer for everything. They also can't accept mortality. To say loved ones are in heaven is comforting. To have an answer for every question is comforting.

It is so easy to say god did it or that this was the intention of god.

What a groundbreaking theory... be proud of your analytical skills

But when you don't know any better yourself how can you have grounds to dispute other theories?

Your answer to my other post was great - I couldn't have reinforced my point any better myself. Bravo

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:14 am

Shroomz wrote: I do agree, that everyone's beliefs should be respected. I do in fact respect everyone's beliefs myself. They just don't all make sense to me. In fact most of them really do seem insane if you want to talk about sanity Gary. Some might say the insane are the sane ones though!!

I don't agree. If your belief is sound then it should stand up to criticism. What if your belief assumes that all white people are superior to any other. Whould you respect that belief?

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:34 am

darkrezin wrote:What came before the Big Bang? What caused the Big Bang to happen?
What a groundbreaking theory... be proud of your analytical skills But when you don't know any better yourself how can you have grounds to dispute other theories?

Your answer to my other post was great - I couldn't have reinforced my point any better myself. Bravo

Again, a fact by definition requires proof. You don't have any proof so there is no god. I don't have to prove a negative; come on. Are you saying anything is possible regardless of the laws of physics and science? To me this simply is not rational. Like I said, this does not mean you are insane because you are within the bounds of current popular thinking. I'm not happy about it but that's the situation we are in. This is why atheists are so frustrated.

There are a lot of theories in physics which they are working on. Some will be proven some maybe never.

If there is a god, he can do anything which means anything is possible. If he wants, he can turn the earth into a frog floating in space tomorrow so watch out. Do you really think that could happen? This is what I would expect cave men to think not us.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:25 am

braincell wrote: Like I said, this does not mean you are insane because you are within the bounds of current popular thinking.

Of course not, but after seing all the evidence to the contrary and still maintaining that same erroneous premise, there's something wrong with you. It almost is an obsessive-compulsive disorder.