Scope on ARM (Apple M1)

[dante]

I agree a Mac version would be good. The longer term market outlook for Scope on Mac/ARM would be better than it is now. And - even might be better than it may have been for Mac/OSX - but the investment hurdle remains just as insurmountable irrespective of which processor/OS runs on the Mac.

So not time to bow out to the Big Slur.

[valis]

I personally would take issue with the idea that without growth there is no future for a business.

The nature of small businesses is to find their niche and focus on that, not constantly expand and 'optimize for growth'. If you've worked for companies that do that, they rely on a constant stream of investment, debt obligations and outside financial offerings (IPOs etc) in order to achieve that, and this is a byproduct of the thinking that you must dominate an industry to be considered a real player. This also means they tend to 'optimize' themselves out of niche markets and focus on a broad userbase, for the best financial returns.

The couple running the bed & breakfast in Appalachia, a small flower ordering service, etc, these will never be fortune 500 companies, clearly. If Holger decides he is better focusing on his existing customer base and keeping his product offerings relevant enough by having a modern interface to use (Xite on PCIe, and possibly a transition to TB due to the closeness of it to PCIe) then that's his choice, no?

Mac is a great platform for devs who focus solely on that platform, or have enough staff to keep up with the changes Apple likes to make. For instance, Thunderbolt 4 finally improves many things, including compatibility with non-native Intel chipsets (it's possible to do it on AMD so ARM is likely possible for Apple, and Apple has cross licensing agreements). But watch, Apple will likely ditch it soon for something even more futuristic.

The same goes for the software side, I know quite a few devs who spend a huge % of their time jumping through the hoops Apple sets up for them. That means digital signature issues & packaging of drivers or plugins so that they will work in what is becoming an increasingly sandboxed environment, etc. Follow them on Twitter and see how many times a year they run into a change that breaks their codebase and causes them to spend a month or two on that alone, without further development on their product.

Does that mean it's impossible? No. But I think we would like to see BNC working on Xite and a few other updates before worrying about a new platform. I recall circa 2003 and the end was high due to native coming on to the scene and eclipsing DSP cards. Most products did die, Scope is one of the rarities that not only survived but is still here over 2 decades later. That means Scope has a niche, a vertical market of users that need what Scope does more than they need to keep up with the Joneses.

[robinette]

what is lame is that the music production industry has become about computers ONLY, buying them, updating them, new pictures of old things, and the loss of real products and skills for automated machines that make cookie-cutter products that are mostly indistinguishable from everything else. the lemming-like push for new products that do not make better music, but have interesting specs is truly lame. the industry is lame.

I really understand what you say and partly agree with you Gary.
And I say that I agree only in part because there is another part that has its feet on the ground. You regret that the music production industry has focused solely on computers ... as if Scope were not part of it. Scope works on computers and only on computers. You cannot use Scope without a computer. And if computers advance, Scope has to advance with them.
Scope is a (computer-based) device designed for the audio industry. Today's audio industry works mostly with MacOS-based computers. And the ratio is going to increase whether you want it or not with the new age of Apple ARM (you want to see it or not).
SonicCore is an audio device development company and must be in the eye of the hurricane.
Most of the users of this forum have modern, up-to-date computers (as the music production industry demands), and they have to juggle and fudge to continue including Scope in their modern set.
Some of these users are also MacOS users, and they manage to implement Scope within their set. But their set has been forced by the Scope platform, because they can't get Scope to work other than with an "old PC" linked to their modern computer. Two computers are required to use Scope in most modern sets.
This does not prevent Scope users from updating their computers (they all do). What it prevents is using Scope with the simplicity of an Apollo or an RME in their modern sets. This situation DOES seem unfortunate to me.
The industry will be pathetic, but we all drink from it. It is logical to think of wanting to drink Scope without fudging in between.

producing another version of Scope at this time would mean no more SonicCore. fertilizer makes a plant grow, but too much fertilizer will kill it.
who will produce it?
who will pay?

There is no more SonicCore. After 10 years with Scope 5, they release Scope 7 with little change. 10 years. Oh my God!!. As much as you want to sell me that if SonicCore covers more work, it dies from a fertilizer overdose, the reality is very different ... and you know it.
10 years to "change the color of the Routing Window and call it Scope 7." 10 years. We have been 3 years since the release of v7 and it has not even been debugged in conditions. Fertilizer for what? To "change the color of the Routing Window again"? ... No man ... no.
Who is going to pay? ... My answer, who pays now? Because until now it has not been seen that the investment has gone very well. I don't see the company taking off. On the contrary, rather. A slow death is seen.
How long will SonicCore last with this policy? Another 10 years? Hard to believe.
the only way to get out of this situation is to play it "all or nothing". MacOS ARM is a strong bet. Doing what has been done so far is playing "nothing".
If there is no money they will have to go out and seek sponsorship. Money does not fall from the sky. You have to go find it. But of course, you have to go looking for it with a good roadmap under your arm. It takes ambition of vision.

You have sister Ferrofish who has dedicated herself to innovating and bringing out products that filled a gap in the market. With greater or less success, Ferrofish has made a name for itself in the world of music production. They bet big. The results are what they are.

A greeting.

[garyb]

again who are you arguing with and what does it matter?

[robinette]

The nature of small businesses is to find their niche and focus on that, not constantly expand and 'optimize for growth'.

SonicCore cannot afford that luxury. SonicCore is a small company, but its current niche is reduced to users who have stayed on the platform since Creamware to a greater extent. Users who are mature in age, who use this platform almost out of nostalgia and because they like to belong to that small niche.
There are hardly any young people or new users who discover this platform and make it their own. There is no "offspring". There is no "generational change". They are the same as always. And the day the usual ones disappear, this wonderful Scope platform will inevitably disappear.
That is not a wise point of view for any company, unless the owner has no heirs and is close to his retirement age. Then I shut up. The company will inevitably die with him too.

Does that mean it's impossible? No. But I think we would like to see BNC working on Xite and a few other updates before worrying about a new platform. I recall circa 2003 and the end was high due to native coming on to the scene and eclipsing DSP cards. Most products did die, Scope is one of the rarities that not only survived but is still here over 2 decades later. That means Scope has a niche, a vertical market of users that need what Scope does more than they need to keep up with the Joneses.

I too would like to see Scope fully work before "jumping into the pool". But we have been with Scope 5 and Scope 7 for a few years, always with bugs without fixing and I particularly do not expect the entire platform to work if SonicCore continues this line.
The DSP platforms that have died have been platforms for DSP accelerators, for computing only plugins (Powercore, Duende ...). Those that have continued are platforms with an environment for handling audio paths and processor computing (Pro Tools HD / HDX, Apollo ...) and now others with similar characteristics come into play (Apogee, Antelope, MOTU ...) but they do not reach the sole to the previous mentioned in terms of versatility.
Scope is in the first group. And within the first group I consider it the Top 1 (no other does what Scope does).
For that reason (and for that reason alone), Scope continues to exist. Because there is nothing quite like it and because many of the old users who did not go to the "dark side" (MacOS) continue to use it (and most not as their main audio interface).

A greeting.

[robinette]

again who are you arguing with... ?

I don't argue with anyone Gary. I have only refuted your answer, and that is called debate and dialogue. I like to listen or read other points of view and expose my own. On many occasions I am initially wrong and after a talk I have seen my wrong point of view.
I think it is enriching. Also, this is a forum and I think it is the appropriate place to exhibit, debate and learn from the experience of others.
But of course, if when one does not think the same as you, you already think at first that he is wrong and that his debate is to seek discussion ... well, yourself.

... and what does it matter?

It matters to me a lot. That is why I participate and make everyone who is interested participate.
If you are not interested, do not participate Gary. It's that simple. Without acrimony.

A greeting.

[dante]

As it is, Scope has longevity in that XITE-1 could potentially continue on for users for the next decade even if S|C closed shop. That's a good thing but also might be the reason for inertia here. I'm happy to just use it as it is but also have a bunch of visions for what it could be. Thunderbolt, samplers, BNC, VST mode, Mac compatibility etc. I expect a few bug fixes to round out its life cycle, but other than that its likely a next decade proposition only at the moment coz don't see any investors on the horizon & imagine Holger would have already explored that possibility to the max.

In any case if theres to be a game changer it would be massive investment inspired by the platform itself and taking into account ARM as just one possibility, one factor in a bunch of others. ARM in itself a catalyst - cant see it.

[garyb]

hilarious.
let me clarify.
for me, the computer is the accessory. it's awfully convenient, though. it's not the most important tool for music production, but it is a useful one. i don't care about computers, per se. for editing and sample playback, they're a real money and time saver, but that's it. i know that computers are the most important thing to some, even more important than music.

robinette, let me also clarify. you have no idea about what really goes into manufacturing the XITE or Scope, but that's ok. you are saying a lot of things and trying to convince others, but the others you are trying to convince are not involved in making the XITE or Scope. at best, you can poison other minds with claptrap about how a product must follow your rules, or cease to exist, but it's unlikely. there's no acrimony involved on my part, but you ARE arguing your point. well done.

do you like Scope, as it is? if so, you had better hope that your doomsday scenario is incorrect.

personally, i don't even need the computer, except to run the Scope gui. the tools that are in Scope are more useful to me than the computer itself. that said, i do find the computer to be useful. the funny thing is, after all the upgrades and developments, computers still do about the same job as 10 years ago, and i do the same amount of work, good or bad, as back in the early win98 days. that's just me, ymmv and that's ok by me.

as i said, what does it matter if you champion ARM here? i think it's perfectly ok to bring the idea up and talk about it, but your arguments in favor of it won't move the needle in any direction. that's why i ask "what does it matter?". it is fun to recognize the new tech, and it may end up being super great. Scope might even end up working on it, for all i know. it's still just something to chat about, at best. chat away. don't bother telling me that i don't have to respond, however. i will do so as i please.

by the way, when will all the Windows bugs be fixed? or when will any software work 100% free of bugs? heck, people are falling all over themselves to get each new version of Windows, and they don't get it for free, either. Apple is full of shit, too. the original Apple OS was probably the finest consumer OS made, but that didn't stop Apple from wrecking it and making people use Unix, buy new hardware to do it, and then abandon Unix for a new standard. what a scam, even if it is a good product. most computer products are made to be disposable and obsolete when purchased. that's the game. it has nothing to do with music production.

lastly you said "But of course, if when one does not think the same as you, you already think at first that he is wrong and that his debate is to seek discussion ... well, yourself." what? that's what i think? if i think you are wrong, it might be because i know some things that you do not. one of the main reasons i read things on PZ is to see and hear things that i do not know.

[fra77x2]

Why are people complaining here?
They need Thunderbolt? You can find it in the James bond series. I think it is number 3.

Samplers? Are you blind? Samplers are in your coffee maker these days. You think samplers in scope or in "hardware" sound better? Check your psychological ears. They need some cleaning.

BNC? What is this stupid thing I really don't want to know.
You need to get an atomic clock for your studio? Well there is a psychology profile for this case, it is called non reversible nut-case.

VST mode? Yes we all want to put our ferrari behind a fiat punto because it goes too fast otherwise. Some latency makes playing sound better. You want anything under the same roof?
Ok well just use a daw, and prepare to have to freeze tracks or get a jerky environment after the processors reach above 40%.

Mac? I personally hate this public money eater pseudo private company that is used to distribute more money to the rich. I have used more macs than any of you. Macs were good when Fidel Castro rulled Cuba...

You want future-proof? Learn production and music making or whatever you think is your thing.
Xite is what it is. A box that has 17 dsps in there. I am not a Scope fan, I am just scope user.

ARM? I like ARM. I have programmed such a chip with my Arduino Due. Fortunately i program it bare metal and there is no shitty OS in there. More emphantically an Apple shitty OS, cross fingers stay away from me. I program it in C so it is the same as a x86 in this case. (as all else for that matter). Do you know what saturating arithmetic is? It is not complicated. It is a processor directive for basic math that "saturates" results. i.e. If my max number is 255. Then when I add 128 and 128 I get as a result 255. Most daws that use a CPU do foldback arihmetic which means that 128+128 results in -2. That creates the worst type of distortion. In my VST environment programmed for personal use (with scope sdk mainly as an inspiration) I use saturating arithmetic. Clipping sounds and behaves like analog. Scope uses DSPs that do saturating arithmetic. Simple stuff.

Everyday I am busy recording beautiful 20-23 years old wanna be singers, some with pretty voices and talent. I also do tutorials for production mostly for Mac users because after they invested a couple of grands in their current setup they figured out they miss some production skills. Or all of them. I try to convince them that from their 40 different types of compressors and from their ugly endless fatiguing lists of "tools" they juct need one. The stock one.
Of course they have to learn sound someday which is not trivial.

Happy 2021 to all.

[robinette]

hilarious.
let me clarify.
for me, the computer is the accessory. it's awfully convenient, though. it's not the most important tool for music production, but it is a useful one. i don't care about computers, per se. for editing and sample playback, they're a real money and time saver, but that's it. i know that computers are the most important thing to some, even more important than music.

Your way of thinking seems correct to me. What's more, I think the same as you even though you may believe not. But neither you nor I are the perfect reflection of the potential consumer. Cases like ours correspond to a tiny percentage of the music production industry. If a company only looks at that tiny percentage and ignores the rest, it is lost. Above all I say that it is lost because Scope consumers already have an age. There are no new young Scope consumers. When this generation is gone, Scope is over.
Tell me you don't see it that way, and tell me how you see the future of new Scope consumers.

personally, i don't even need the computer, except to run the Scope gui. the tools that are in Scope are more useful to me than the computer itself. that said, i do find the computer to be useful. the funny thing is, after all the upgrades and developments, computers still do about the same job as 10 years ago, and i do the same amount of work, good or bad, as back in the early win98 days. that's just me, ymmv and that's ok by me.

Once again I agree with your presentation. But I'm not going to stop here. By that rule of three SonicCore would not have given birth to Xite, because ... why? ... if with the Scope cards I could perfectly continue making music on a PC with XP. Isn't a PC with XP and Scope cards enough to make music? Yes, but ... SonicCore was not supposed to stay there. He was obliged to give a PCIe solution as computers were updated.
Now we are in the same case. SonicCore could keep squeezing its devices for its 4 longtime users without doing anything new and nothing would happen. But absolutely nothing. That would mean that whoever is programming Scope will continue to do the same as long as they don't get tired. I am totally convinced that the person who develops Scope lives off another salary and develops Scope in his spare time. Otherwise it is not understood. Scope doesn't make money to support a small business. Of that I'm sure.
What worries me is that SonicCore is not considering a sustainable growth alternative. Until now it will be sustainable (developing in free time), but regarding growth it is no longer that it is zero, it is that we can speak of decrease.

as i said, what does it matter if you champion ARM here? i think it's perfectly ok to bring the idea up and talk about it, but your arguments in favor of it won't move the needle in any direction. that's why i ask "what does it matter?".

My arguments are the arguments of one of the Scope users. A user can only speak and argue, and absolutely nothing can happen. But if it were not just one user, but a high percentage, SonicCore might be more compelled to listen and try to satisfy at least what little it has left for its sustenance.
It matters. Sure it matters. If we're all concerned, SonicCore has to care.

Scope might even end up working on it, for all i know. it's still just something to chat about, at best. chat away. don't bother telling me that i don't have to respond, however. i will do so as i please.

I want to clarify that I have no interest in your not participating. On the contrary, I have stressed that I want to involve everyone who is interested. If you are interested in debating, you are welcome.
But the answer ...
[quote = garyb post_id = 347545 time = 1609378216 user_id = 306]
again who are you arguing with and what does it matter?
[/ quote]
... it seemed to me a bit arrogant and out of place, not typical of someone who was interested in debating, but someone who was interested in ridiculing and closing the matter.
However, if I am wrong in this assessment, I apologize. I will try to redirect the thread towards its purpose: the debate.

by the way, when will all the Windows bugs be fixed? or when will any software work 100% free of bugs? heck, people are falling all over themselves to get each new version of Windows, and they don't get it for free, either. Apple is full of shit, too. the original Apple OS was probably the finest consumer OS made, but that didn't stop Apple from wrecking it and making people use Unix, buy new hardware to do it, and then abandon Unix for a new standard. what a scam, even if it is a good product. most computer products are made to be disposable and obsolete when purchased. that's the game. it has nothing to do with music production.

I think that's shooting into the air. Those problems you speak of exist and will always exist. With Scope or without Scope. That doesn't mean that Scope doesn't have to adapt to the circumstances.
It seems that if others have mistakes the best thing is to do nothing and stay put. Tell MOTU, RME that story ... tell them not to do anything because Windows and MacOS have bugs and their bugs force them to develop more code.
Please ... if you tell me that this is not useful for making music, I would tell you that Scope is not useful either, that is why you buy a fucking trumpet or any acoustic instrument, because a fucking electric guitar is also subject to amplification, and all the Who owns an electric guitar spends his life changing the amp, the combo, or the pedals in search of that sound that he never quite finds. Do you also tell those to stop being bullshit and start making music? No man no.
So ... why do you insist on your proposition that we don't worry about the development of Scope and we worry about making music?
The tools are there to make things easier for us. Scope nowadays cannot make things easier. On the contrary, it complicates the setup of our studios and forces us to juggle if we want to continue having it integrated into it. And all because it does not have an appropriate development.

lastly you said "But of course, if when one does not think the same as you, you already think at first that he is wrong and that his debate is to seek discussion ... well, yourself." what? that's what i think? if i think you are wrong, it might be because i know some things that you do not. one of the main reasons i read things on PZ is to see and hear things that i do not know.

There are many things that I do not know. Of course there are. So many. That is one of the reasons why I open this thread and invite Gary to participate in it.
Participate and debate. And if something of what I expose in this thread cannot be, I would like to know the real reason. Why it's not possible? For money? Is it just for money? How much money are we talking about?.
Who develop Scope who cannot cope with their development? Why can't they cope with their development? Do you lack time? How much time do they need and what do they need it for?
Anyway ... I don't think it's very difficult to answer if you really know these things. The really difficult thing is to answer clearly if you want to hide something from the situation.
Since you know some things that I do not know, could you clarify them for me in this thread. I am wishing it. Really.

A greeting.

[robinette]

You want future-proof? Learn production and music making or whatever you think is your thing.
Xite is what it is. A box that has 17 dsps in there. I am not a Scope fan, I am just scope user.

Xite is not just 17 DSP's. Xite is an audio MIDI interface, with audio or MIDI I / O. With low latency ASIO driver to be used as the main device in our studios.
If, as an audio device with several digital I / O, the WC fails ... it doesn't work for me.
If as a MIDI device it fails me when saving configurations, presets, etc ... it does not work for me.
If I can't use your WDM driver as the main device ... it doesn't work for me.
Etc etc. etc...
If I have Xite and then need to integrate an RME in my studio to use Xite (as many do around here), as you will understand Xite does not deliver what it promises.
It's just about that. It is simple.

Mac? I personally hate this public money eater pseudo private company that is used to distribute more money to the rich. I have used more macs than any of you. Macs were good when Fidel Castro rulled Cuba...

Yeah ... Mac sucks like a piano ... yeah ... okay with it.
But ... does the Mac user who works with Mac and who bases his study with Mac think the same?
I'm saying that most music production studios are based on MacOS. I am saying that that number is increasing. And I'm saying that SonicCore should consider supporting a significant number of potential customers.
I'm not talking about Scope Cards or Xite anymore. I'm even talking about a device that serves as a turning point in the company. Maybe similar to Xite, but with some forced changes and adapted to the times that run even to future times.
Xite has Z-Link that is worth absolutely nothing (only for the old A16). You pay for connectors whose protocol is missing today. Is not correct.
You talk about thunderbolt. Why not? And why not AVB? Why not USB 3.2 or USB4 soon?
Apollo works under USB3.0 and Scope can't? Why not?.
Particularly USB looks like protocol shit to me, but thunderbolt doesn't, and neither does AVB or Dante.
Anyway ... they are questions with already known answers (money, money, money ...). But those answers are not at odds with the needs of potential and new Scope customers. They are answers related to the fact that the company cannot cope due to its scarcity as a company, not because users do not want it or do not demand it (I always speak of new users, old users are already used to the ñapas to integrate Scope in their sets ).

Happy 2021 to all.

Equally Happy 2021!!!

[dawman]

Scope XITE-1 is like a Vintage Amp designed by a Custom shop.

You won’t see celebrities lip syncing as they do mating rituals in circles around Holger as he stands on stage.

Just a bunch of guys who like their tools and use them.

Someday somebody might make an audio interface with as many I/O’s that can be automated by MIDI CC#’s.
Fascinating concept.

[fra77x2]

@dawman
"Someday somebody might make an audio interface with as many I/O’s that can be automated by MIDI CC#’s."

Hi Jim. Can you explain in more detail what you like to achieve? Perhaps it can already be done. I don't develop for XIte anymore but for you I can make an exception.

[fra77x2]

@robinette

Wishes

[fra77x2]

Market driven designs try to create short-term profit. The drawback is that it creates cluttered semi-products with pro-look front but redantant inner-value. Engineer driven designs aim to long-term moderate profit. These are the tools real engineers use. Imagine a hammer with endless new versions of it. Every month you have to learn how to grab it again because a new loby benefits from it. In general "Don't believe the hype". You know why C language made in 69' from Dennis Ritchie is still language of the year (tiobe index). https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ Because it is made with love and intelligent from a person that wanted to provide to himself and others the simplest way to program computers. After 600+ new languages I am glad I am a C user and grateful I had the instict to see this in a world that everybody tried to tell me to use something else. Python sucks big time. Imagine white space is part of the syntax. The only Pythonish thing in it, is the name. The same is Scope. The sdk is made by great engineers aiming to simplify and provide what is optimus.

[valis]

And I do think @robinette has some inherent biases.

"Without Growth there can be no progress" (paraphrasing for effect from earlier post)
"If a company only looks at that tiny percentage and ignores the rest, it is lost."
"What worries me is that SonicCore is not considering a sustainable growth alternative."

and then:

....
The tools are there to make things easier for us. Scope nowadays cannot make things easier. On the contrary, it complicates the setup of our studios and forces us to juggle if we want to continue having it integrated into it. And all because it does not have an appropriate development.

To me, Scope is like my other hardware, it sits alongside both my Macs and my "PeeCees" and does what it does just fine. Oh, it runs with a dedicated computer that can ALSO host software as well (for which I use bidule). In other words, the way I would run Scope alongside an M1 would be to keep my Scope machine, and buy an M1. Currently I have 3 RME devices and a NI interface on my Macbook Pro all clocked to, and communicating with Scope. This is excessive for my needs, and really for most anyone's, but I tend to keep the things that I've collected running and as you've noted the computing industry moves along to keep up happily upgrading. It just so happens that a lot of my work is done in the visual fields, and in order to keep up with the Joneses there (render times, CPU compatibility etc) I build new machines every few years.

Guess what, my Scope PC is still the same 2001 era Xeon that it's been in for almost 20 years. And it will work in a machine that's fairly new, as long as that machine has Scope cards. I have hardware synths & effects units spanning the last 25-30 years, they are like Scope. They work, I use them for what they do. And in that same time I've gone through numerous Macs and Windows computers, which is the 'progress' and 'sustainability' that you seem to be referring to.

I would suggest instead that it has become normalized for many that the 'pace of progress' is set by 'how frequently i get new shiny things'. GaryB alluded to this. The way this game is played is some VERY IMPORTANT new feature is rolled out that requires new changes in the siicon and software, and so last gen gear struggles with this "Just One More Thing" trick, and all users are compelled to upgrade to stay operative with the new VERY IMPORTANT feature. Maybe it's a math trick (SSE/AVX) or maybe it's simply using more math than before and so adding 2 extra registers makes it work fine, while a year old machine limps along at half pace trying to keep up. In other words, let's make sure we bottleneck the heck out of last-gen somehow, so we can sell more units.

Either way, it's technically called Planned Obsolescence and ensures the tech industry has grown to eat much of the wealth of the western world, to the point where these companies now think they can dominate our political and social sphere and 'engineer' things as they see fit. Funny these same companies use that term 'sustainable' as a marketing ploy, while churning out machines that use toxic metals ad nauseum and finding new ways to reach into my pocketbook every year. If only I'd been smart enough to learn to be a plumber 25 years ago...but such is life.

Sustainability is the couple running the bed & breakfast in Appalachia, they do what their business needs to operate daily and no more, and they enjoy a scenic view with fresh air and happy clientelle. I know, I've been there and had a great time. I saw zero signs and ads promoting how sustainable and green they were, nor anything touting their natural & organic ingredients. And yet all the food was local, as organic as you can get when you grow it yourself (which is to say that's the REAL organic), and very very fresh & tasty. Not a Mac in sight there, though they did seem to be using somewhat modern cel phones and had a booking service so there's surely a computer or two there somewhere. They're just not as integral to that business as the M1 seems to be to yours.

Which brings us back to the point here, it seems as if you're suggesting on one hand that the M1 offers an opportunity to 'get in early' on a new & expanding market for Mac users. Macs are only going up from here! And yet Apple has gone through these 'shifts' several times, including losing marketshare and "Pro" users who didn't like the "new way" or cost of retooling everytime they make a platform or generational shift. I recall as I was there and knew those guys. And btw, all of the Apple devs I know had to buy Mac Mini dev kits many months ago to get up to speed and be ready, and M1's were also delivered in Macbook form to them all. So I'd say Scope would be starting rather late to hop on that train, it's already leaving the station.

Could holger do it? I don't see why not, if resources were dedicated. But again, what's the utility here?

One of the larger issues I think the Scope userbase faces is the fact that our PCI cards are aging. Now, it might follow that these users will then want an Xite, but it's equally likely that they might just shed all their legacy cruft for a shiny M1 as you suggest. So there might be some merit to what you're posting, but it's a bit wrong-way-around. Why? Because only somel % of our uses will choose the Xite to begin with based on cost, obviously. Ok so a lesser device made to be compatible with the latest & greatest shurely would have more 'market penetration' and lead to these 'sustainable' models you suggest. Except, that's exactly NOT the business model that SonicCore wound up focusing on.

We have Noah, ASB's and many other attempts to expand their business model to look at. Maybe those were the 'wrong' way to 'expand' and you know hte 'right' way, well more on that below.

Since I can see the web traffic this tiny forum generates, I *know* Holger has a userbase that's big enough to continue to generate an income. That's what I mean when I saw he has a niche. Most of the posters here are established members for years, with a breadth of knowledge newcomers lack. We have less than 1% of our visitors posting, in fact far less. So my take is there are many users who come here to read & learn but don't actually post for many years, if ever. Either that means they're happily using Scope, or they don't use Scope at all and come here to read...???

Suffice it to say I've shed the bots for a week or so recently due to a server move, so I can easily determine who are real users and who are automated (google etc declare themselves as bots but malware & school projects may not). And the page views held without the bots, so there is an actual userbase here. That's what I'd call a niche.

Let's say we've duly noted that the M1 is a thing, and that people can now tour using the same chip in their phone, an iPad or a larger format with a built in keyboard. Should holger have worried about making iPhone interfaces or 'be lost in the dusts of time'? Because that's sustainability, right? In any case, noone is here saying 'you can't get what you want', just that what you want may not be what Holger & other Scope users want.

Since you see an opportunity, I suggest you start your business plan now and find the funding and make it happen. Looking at our larger political situation the last year, one wonders who long that might be possible so get crackin! I'm mostly jesting of course, but there's no reason you can't do this aside from, well facing many of the hurdles that SonicCore already overcame. So you could set out and learn what they are yourself...

Participate and debate. And if something of what I expose in this thread cannot be, I would like to know the real reason. Why it's not possible? For money? Is it just for money? How much money are we talking about?.
Who develop Scope who cannot cope with their development? Why can't they cope with their development? Do you lack time? How much time do they need and what do they need it for?
Anyway ... I don't think it's very difficult to answer if you really know these things. The really difficult thing is to answer clearly if you want to hide something from the situation.
Since you know some things that I do not know, could you clarify them for me in this thread. I am wishing it. Really.

A greeting.

Ah, or you can just ask GaryB for all that lucrative insider information and THEN start your competing product. Again, I jest, but the allegation that GaryB is somehow 'covering up' some dire situation or nasty secret seems to be the peak on this hill we've climbed in this thread. I would suggest we climb back down to base camp and figure out what we all have in common. Which I should hope is making music at the end of the day, rather than showing off our latest shiny gadgets (we do that too!)

[fra77x2]

The problem is we are a techy community that will learn its lesson again at the suitable moment. when it will be late and painful. The truth is this society is based on the exploitation of human work, unequality thrives and grows, most programmers and technicians are being the subjects of this low or even no paid no insurance work, people die at abnormally low age due to overworking, art and music suffers, the neocons are clapping and life is going on like a bitch that doesn't stop to bite. Malevolency has grown to a philosophical level. we have the best tools (stolen from the work of the hard workers) destroyed by neoliberalist marketing choices and the pathetic stance of the progressives. The technology instead of being used for the relief of unhealthy and manual de-humanizing work is used for surveilance, a militaristic pseudo liberal society organization. Consumerism, vulgar pragmatism, moral compromising, these are the values of the neo-human. Instead of looking to the world in the face, and recognizing the tremendous work that has to be done for a better society we once more get lost in the bubbles of imagination. There is no art but poor replicas made in such circumstances and by such people. You dont have to buy new instruments or upgrade your pc. These are the pavlovian bells that make the human tail to shake. you can surely learn to use them they are fantastic but it requires many years of dedication. Specialization has grown so much only specialists are pros and their goons. i am a specialist but i hate them. they act like exchausted biological robots. all the other stuff is just fancy advertising. If you like your new gadgets it is an illusion that hides your mental emptyness. I dont pretend that the choices are easy perhaps it is really the worst best world, but people should understand that challenges grow and we have to strive for the improvement and betterment for all. Now as woody said: doctor it hurts when i am doing this... what should i do? -Well don't do it...
and trully guys fix a setup some time and stop talking about that. it sounds rediculous. i begin to think that in the conservetoire there is going to be a lesson: motherboards and stuff... jeez

[robinette]

To me, Scope is like my other hardware, it sits alongside both my Macs and my "PeeCees" and does what it does just fine. Oh, it runs with a dedicated computer that can ALSO host software as well (for which I use bidule). In other words, the way I would run Scope alongside an M1 would be to keep my Scope machine, and buy an M1. Currently I have 3 RME devices and a NI interface on my Macbook Pro all clocked to, and communicating with Scope. This is excessive for my needs, and really for most anyone's

Exact. That is what I have been referring to from the beginning. I've said it several times. The majority of those present in this forum and the majority of Scope users use Scope as if it were an external multi-effects, or as if it were an external digital mixer, or as if it were an external synth, or as all those things together will be ... but all of them external.
It is clear that Scope has that possibility and that it is the only way it can be integrated into any modern studio today.
But, I repeat, Scope does not sell a multi-effects, mixer, synth ... external. Sold as a complete audio interface. It is sold as a complete virtual studio that runs inside our main computer.
It is assumed that precisely this characteristic exempts from the obligation to be used only as an external device. Scope, up to 4.5, has always worked perfectly within our machines as the only interface and using only its driver.
Now it is also possible with Windows 10 and Scope 7 ... yes ... but with software deficiencies in an interface of more than € 3,000.
According to your exposition, by that rule of three, why have you programmed a 64-bit driver? What is Windows 10 support for? If total is going to be used within a secondary computer, it does not matter if it has Win7 or XP. It is a secondary PC. It does not matter.

Like Scope, ProTools TDM can be used. But a TDM is not sold to you on the manufacturer's website as current new equipment. That's what the HDX is working for on any type of platform.
What if. A professional thinks about amortizing his investment and is not updating his software every year. You can't say that about Scope precisely, since Scope is updated every 10 years. The pity is that the Scope updates are updates that cover the odd broken, but leave many others unrepaired. And encountering that every 10 years is disappointing.

Which brings us back to the point here, it seems as if you're suggesting on one hand that the M1 offers an opportunity to 'get in early' on a new & expanding market for Mac users. Macs are only going up from here! And yet Apple has gone through these 'shifts' several times, including losing marketshare and "Pro" users who didn't like the "new way" or cost of retooling everytime they make a platform or generational shift. I recall as I was there and knew those guys.

I don't think we are in the same situation that we encountered with the move to Intel with OsX. It has absolutely nothing to do. At that time Apple was forced to trade architecture for the cutting edge and dominance of Intel. Not to be left behind.
These days, the move to ARM architecture is very different. The development is entirely led by Apple and its software-hardware synergy is leading it to the forefront of desktop computing. M1 is just the beginning. With M1 they only showed the paw and it was enough to stir the whole henhouse.
No. It is not the same as in previous architecture changes. Not much less. The previous ones were not to be left behind, and the one now is to be placed directly at the head.

And btw, all of the Apple devs I know had to buy Mac Mini dev kits many months ago to get up to speed and be ready, and M1's were also delivered in Macbook form to them all. So I'd say Scope would be starting rather late to hop on that train, it's already leaving the station.

Development for M1 has been going on for months to release M1 with some software support behind it. But there is still a long way to go. Apple has given itself 2-3 years (as minimum) to migrate all of its products to ARM. That means no, it's not too late, the train is still waiting at the station for all developers to migrate their applications to ARM. Among them are the manufacturers of audio interfaces, whose drivers are programmed for x86 / x64.
The train is still going to be at the station for quite a prudent time.

Could holger do it? I don't see why not, if resources were dedicated. But again, what's the utility here?

The utility is the same as that of supporting 64 bits. If you find 64-bit support useful ... why not support MacOS when MacOS is also the most widespread platform in the world of audio production?
I see incongruous that if you want to use Xite only as external equipment you need a 64-bit driver. That if it has support for it, it is perfect, but that it is not necessary.
Well, the same can be said with MacOS.

One of the larger issues I think the Scope userbase faces is the fact that our PCI cards are aging. Now, it might follow that these users will then want an Xite, but it's equally likely that they might just shed all their legacy cruft for a shiny M1 as you suggest. So there might be some merit to what you're posting, but it's a bit wrong-way-around. Why? Because only somel % of our uses will choose the Xite to begin with based on cost, obviously. Ok so a lesser device made to be compatible with the latest & greatest shurely would have more 'market penetration' and lead to these 'sustainable' models you suggest. Except, that's exactly NOT the business model that SonicCore wound up focusing on.

I have also mentioned that myself. It doesn't have to be a Xite device. It could be another device. Similar or not to Xite-1 or Xite-D could be based on "savings in I+D". The only thing that should be changed are some I / O (remove Z-Link for God's sake) and provide a more portable and future-proof communication interface.
More investment? Yes ... but also more return of it (and with more guarantees than if it were only in Xite).

We have Noah, ASB's and many other attempts to expand their business model to look at. Maybe those were the 'wrong' way to 'expand' and you know hte 'right' way, well more on that below.

I know a little about the current demand. Currently home studios proliferate to the detriment of larger and more expensive studios. Tracking is being used more and more, few channels but one of the good ones. Likewise, mixing, remixing, mastering, broadcasting, streaming works proliferate. Jobs that can be done with few good quality I / O and all ITB.
Scope has a lot of potential to be the center of any of these types of studies, equal to or better than an Apollo can. But for that it has to expand its development and update its I / O offer as well as the interface for connecting to the computer.
More and more music is being streamed and less is being listened to live music. This is a fact. The approach has to enhance that line in my opinion. I am not saying to abandon the idea of a device for a live show, but to be more empowered where there is more niche in the market.

Since I can see the web traffic this tiny forum generates, I *know* Holger has a userbase that's big enough to continue to generate an income. That's what I mean when I saw he has a niche. Most of the posters here are established members for years, with a breadth of knowledge newcomers lack. We have less than 1% of our visitors posting, in fact far less. So my take is there are many users who come here to read & learn but don't actually post for many years, if ever. Either that means they're happily using Scope, or they don't use Scope at all and come here to read...???

It does not seem that the revenue due to loyal users is enough to lift the platform as it deserves.
Since the thread has started I have been told several times that the real problem is financial. With more money it is clear that you can increase the number of developers and therefore accelerate development and take it further.
The niche seems to be just enough for the niche. It seems that the old users do not want the platform to grow from what I read. It's strange. As the platform grows, former users can continue to use Scope as they please. They do not lose. The only losers are potential Scope consumers.
Perhaps many of the PlanetZ users that you say enter from time to time and do not participate, are users who are curious about the course Scope is taking in the present and its future project. Perhaps many of those users who enter from time to time and who do not participate are former Scope users, those who left the platform for not supporting OsX (I know a good handful of them only in my country). I know for good fact that some of them look askance at Scope and long for the platform ... yes ... but they love OsX and they don't want to use 2 computers and 2 audio interfaces because they want to have a simple set that does not limit them (all ITB, but everything "Inside ONE Box", not everything "Inside TWO Boxes"). And there are many users with such sights.

Let's say we've duly noted that the M1 is a thing, and that people can now tour using the same chip in their phone, an iPad or a larger format with a built in keyboard. Should holger have worried about making iPhone interfaces or 'be lost in the dusts of time'? Because that's sustainability, right? In any case, noone is here saying 'you can't get what you want', just that what you want may not be what Holger & other Scope users want.

That's the problem. That what Scope users want is not at odds with what most users demand.
Perhaps Holger will find it easier not to complicate his life and continue as before. That is very respectable. But that Scope users are not interested? ... What are you saying? ... Current Scope users were not going to be affected at all that there was support for MacOS ARM (for example), or that it was born another SonicCore audio / MIDI interface more adapted to today's times. That in no way prevents them from continuing with their lives as they have been up to now.
Moreover, from what you say, I risk thinking that some of the current Scope users do not want more Scope users because they do not want their niche to grow. They want their niche to be just theirs and just for them. That would be very selfish reasoning. I hope I am wrong and that it is not that way. It would be somewhat retrograde.

Since you see an opportunity, I suggest you start your business plan now and find the funding and make it happen. Looking at our larger political situation the last year, one wonders who long that might be possible so get crackin! I'm mostly jesting of course, but there's no reason you can't do this aside from, well facing many of the hurdles that SonicCore already overcame. So you could set out and learn what they are yourself...

I am a user, not a businessman. If I were a businessman I would not be commenting on this forum. I would go straight to talk to Holger and ask him 2 things:
1- What aspirations do you have with Scope?
2- what does he need to achieve these goals?
About the rest (negotiation and conditions) I do not comment on anything because I have already said that I am NOT a businessman. I'm just a user.

Ah, or you can just ask GaryB for all that lucrative insider information and THEN start your competing product. Again, I jest, but the allegation that GaryB is somehow 'covering up' some dire situation or nasty secret seems to be the peak on this hill we've climbed in this thread. I would suggest we climb back down to base camp and figure out what we all have in common. Which I should hope is making music at the end of the day, rather than showing off our latest shiny gadgets (we do that too!)

Obviously my intention was not to accuse Gary of covering up any desperate situation. Not much less. I have simply invited him to make me see the light in those matters that he says he knows very well and that I (according to him) do not know.
Maybe I expressed myself badly and he misinterpreted my words. I repeat that it was not my intention to accuse anyone. If this has been understood, I apologize to Gary and to the people who have read me and have been equally offended.
And of course, above all, the first thing is to make music. Good music. I think that is what brings us all here and I always keep it in mind.

A greeting.

[robinette]

and trully guys fix a setup some time and stop talking about that. it sounds rediculous. i begin to think that in the conservetoire there is going to be a lesson: motherboards and stuff... jeez

Not in the conservatory, but right here there is a subforum dedicated to settings for Scope and Xite (motherboards and stuff).
It shouldn't be so ridiculous.

The problem is we are a techy community that will learn its lesson again at the suitable moment. when it will be late and painful. The truth is this society is based on the exploitation of human work, unequality thrives and grows, most programmers and technicians are being the subjects of this low or even no paid no insurance work, people die at abnormally low age due to overworking, art and music suffers, the neocons are clapping and life is going on like a bitch that doesn't stop to bite. Malevolency has grown to a philosophical level. we have the best tools (stolen from the work of the hard workers) destroyed by neoliberalist marketing choices and the pathetic stance of the progressives. The technology instead of being used for the relief of unhealthy and manual de-humanizing work is used for surveilance, a militaristic pseudo liberal society organization. Consumerism, vulgar pragmatism, moral compromising, these are the values of the neo-human. Instead of looking to the world in the face, and recognizing the tremendous work that has to be done for a better society we once more get lost in the bubbles of imagination. There is no art but poor replicas made in such circumstances and by such people. You dont have to buy new instruments or upgrade your pc. These are the pavlovian bells that make the human tail to shake. you can surely learn to use them they are fantastic but it requires many years of dedication. Specialization has grown so much only specialists are pros and their goons. i am a specialist but i hate them. they act like exchausted biological robots. all the other stuff is just fancy advertising. If you like your new gadgets it is an illusion that hides your mental emptyness. I dont pretend that the choices are easy perhaps it is really the worst best world, but people should understand that challenges grow and we have to strive for the improvement and betterment for all. Now as woody said: doctor it hurts when i am doing this... what should i do? -Well don't do it...

Wow ... I just hope that those of us who think that way have not bought "the latest Ryzen", we do not use WhatsApp or Tweeter, or carry a smartphone in our pocket or consume YouTube videos. It would be somewhat incongruous.

A greeting.

[fra77x2]

yeah yeah don't want to spoil your consuming. You feel ok now? Remember you are the one who complains and can't make things work and gets in other peoples business with your pedantic way.