Need help with loudness maximising chain

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irrelevance

Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by irrelevance »

jhulk wrote:watch your levels going in maximum mix level before mastering should be about -6db this then gives you 5.97db room for the mastering section

if you go in to hot then it will limit heavily and you will hear rough compression where things like drums get limited to much
the best tools are your ears also set it to mono aswell to check for phase cancellation as any inverted sounds in opposite channel will cancel each other out and when set to mono you really can hear this

we use a separate output reference speaker amp which has a mono switch for this really helps as listening on consumer speakers as well as studio moniters helps with the mastering as your trying to get a good overall mix that sounds good on all systems

Missed this comment somehow.

Funny how certain numbers stick in the mind. I tend to capture all audio to -6db where did this number come from :lol: But I will watch the mix level thanks (not sure how you arrived at the 5.97db but it's another one of those things i've yet to learn)


Got a little ipod mount unit that's pretty grotty and listen in the car, ear buds etc

Think my ears got way to tired yesterday.
irrelevance

Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by irrelevance »

borg wrote:just some things to try out, and some a bit of the obvious:

fix it in the mix first (lo cuts on everything that doesn't need it, even on things you wouldn't expect, like cymbals/hats, maybe change eq/comp order in chain, ...)

then in the masterchain, make a chain of compressors that work gradually, rather than one compressor/limiter working harder. Put the fastest compressor first to catch the peaks (high ratio), the next compressors/limiters should have lower ratio and gain reduction (like if you used one compressor with GR of 6dB, try it with four with GR of 1,5dB.
If your using M/S eq, try cutting some of the bass on the sides, to focus the bass in the centre.
I love PsyQ, but use it very mildly, mostly leaving the high eq processing off, only a bit of mid/hi processing, the bass more (to taste), turn down the stereo knob, add compression to taste.

I remember from my old creamware days, I used the Sonic Timeworks mastercompressor a lot, which to my novice ears sounded wow... loud. Now I know a bit more, I need to have a new listen, but some years ago, with all the CW to SlC transition woes, Ralf Bach leaving (Gary, you do a hell of a job too, man!) and a flow of new devices, the Sonic Timeworks bundle has been forgotten, and I seriously doubt I can get it to register to any of the cards/Xite, should I find the keys. So many changes of hardware through the years...

Really interesting seems everyone here appreciates sharing the load between devices but this is a really new concept for me. I appreciate there being a maximum range to work within but cannot get it round my head that as a those limits are reached that somehow the device works less well. But now I think of it that sounds like a good description of aliasing; minus the usual frequency and hardware limit blurb :lol:

Yeh the only sonic timeworks plugs I invested in were the reverbs and fortunately the algos are still with scope. I never did try comparing the packages for any sonic difference.
irrelevance

Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by irrelevance »

Also I tend to find the tracks I make that really groove for me (electronic dance, d&b, techno) are the one that have seriously mono sections (breaks and drum work outs) and then move into wide stereo atmospheres pads etc
So for instance looking at a phase scope in my intros there will be a lot of stereo movement/information and then when the beats drop it's heavy mono with incidental stereo (panned) drum hits. It's a mono - stereo call/response :P :roll:

It's what makes my head nod anyway. 8)
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garyb
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Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by garyb »

if you are recording, you do NOT need to record super high levels to get a good recording. this isn't analog recording. it's important to use a 24bit converter and stream, but 1/2 to 3/4 of the way up the scale should have sufficient detail. it's actually better to compress the recording rather than using a limiter when recording. once the dynamics have been reduced, there's no turning back.

the mastered completed track should have peaks just below zero, not necessarily, for the original source material to be mixed.
irrelevance

Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by irrelevance »

I don't record too hot as I mention I keep things quite low -6db (probably using the wrong reference)

garyb wrote:
the mastered completed track should have peaks just below zero, not necessarily, for the original source material to be mixed.
Not sure I understand this. So what you're saying is that regardless of where signal peaks are they should peak just below zero right? If that's the case then yes this is what I aim for without pushing the entire track towards that peak I don't mind some transients moving into this region (just below not over and distorted)
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dante
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Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by dante »

That's how I set brickmaster - so that the final output just touches on zero visually maybe just 2 or 3 times in the song. Brickmaster will guarantee it won't go over.. That's what it's for. So you cam push it so its always at zero if you want but i dont want to sacrifice so much dynamics. It's very fast.

But it's also a mid side device so you can widen your stereo if you want
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garyb
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Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by garyb »

there really isn't any over in digital. it's under zero or it's destroyed.
certain techniques can make an overage acceptable(in the programming), but it's not the same as analog, where you are expected to go over zero by quite a lot.

-6db is pretty hot(although i would have the peaks a little higher in the finished master mix) relative to zero...

if we're having problems with definitions, i might suggest that one does not go to far with "mastering", but just tries to produce a balanced mix with as few frequencies sticking out as possible. leave the final limiting and eq to a professional, if the music is to be sold, and don't worry about it if the music isn't for sale. without the proper knowledge, and more importantly, room to hear it in, more damage can be done than good. if my advice is stupid, then i'd be sure to listen to the final mix in a wide variety of settings, from very good, to very bad systems. look for things that stick out that shouldn't and then minimize them. also, look for things that get covered by other things and remove clutter. there is no magic bullet that will cure all ills, no one process that always wins, except a great engineer(you know guys who knopw all about sound and how to make gear), a great room, and unbelievably expensive(or just darned expensive) custom hardware.

personally, i generally try to get as even a response across all frequencies as possible in the mix itself, before any processing. this is so that the mix will playback on the majority of systems. i use my ears, but a nice meter helps, too. once i'm in the ballpark, i use BX Digital to mono the low end and do final eqing. i like to pull LF completely out of the side portion of the mid/side sections. then i use optimaster. i use the wizard, running through three or four options and then adjust the gain on each band to have about the same level going out as went in. that's usually plenty if i did a good job on the mix. then i record the mix into Samplitude. i use the normalizer in Sam to pull the peaks up to zero, there isn't much change here, i just want to prepare for the final brick-wall limiting that i do in Sam to further reduce the overall dynamic range to get as loud a track as i need for the type of music. generally, i like the mix to be "loud", but not nearly as loud as is common in current pop music.

sorry to blab so hard, if it's helpful, good. if not, please discard...
irrelevance

Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by irrelevance »

It's all good gary food for thought thx ;-)

I'm taking my stuff commercial in future so I think I'll just sit on the mixes that I'm happy with and sound good when boosted with peak master (which I can still use for dj mixes for showcase) and then look to get a bunch worked over at the same time by a mastering eng as my tinkering is not adding anything to the music at this stage.
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Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by dante »

garyb wrote:there really isn't any over in digital. it's under zero or it's destroyed..
Thats why I called it 'zero visually' - because Brickmaster wont let it get to 0 - it just registers as zero on the meter but its Maximum Peak = -0.2 dFBs

But yes - ears is the best.
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sunmachine
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Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by sunmachine »

irrelevance wrote:I don't record too hot as I mention I keep things quite low -6db (probably using the wrong reference)
This is a great video on gain staging. It's actually for Mixbus users but the concepts apply to any DAW of course.
They recommend a recording level at around -15dBFs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHEUKKvVtCg
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Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by garyb »

that's what i said. this eliminates the need for compressors while recording in most cases. you have to be feeding 24bit information for this to work, however. i had it explained something like this. it's more about the illustration than the science, but a cd is 16bit, but most of the audio never actually achieves a full 16bit signal. most of the time, signals are at 9-12bits because the signal level is several db lower than 0. this sounds great. with a 24bit signal 15db down or so, you get something like 12bits of resolution, more than 12bits if the signal is stronger than that. in any case, you should have a good, clean recording that accurately captures the sound in the room, assuming a good room and convertor and cabling and mic and pre. or also a great sound off of of direct feed, assuming a good convertor and good cable and a good DI and/or preamp. a signal that's around -6 will need to be compressed in recording, which will limit your options later and lead to possible mistakes that can't be fixed. also, the hotter tracks will tend to overload busses and fx, especially when combined with other super-hot tracks, making mixing harder.

simple solutions are still the best and the best sounding, unless mangling something is the actual point. the less you have in the recording chain, the easier it is to have great sounding mixes. if a plain recording of a well-played instrument doesn't sound great, then look to fixing the room, the mic pre and mic placement. a good sounding recording should be automatic, just by throwing up mics(thoughtfully). if the music is not well played, no tricks, no plugins, no editing will really fix that.

there aren't any exact guides for doing any of this. it helps to try to understand how the machine works, and how audio works, but there's no guide for how to recognize when something actually will sound good to others, or even to recognize what sounds good to you. having a hammer and a saw doesn't make one a carpenter or an architect and no one is giving up any secret tricks that have made all the money. if you cackle and then lightning flashes as thunder roars, you'll know that the whole thing has made you mad...
irrelevance

Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by irrelevance »

Well I have read so much over the years and filled much of it away in recesses somewhere mentally labeling under - important see later - and conjuring up vague memories of important topics covered. So yep had to go into physical storage and dig out the Mastering Audio tome. Also had a trawl over at sospubs and found some great refresher articles. So between that and scope rise (for specifics) I should have it covered, well theory anyway. Will definitely pull down the recording levels a bit in future :wink:
jhulk
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Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by jhulk »

mastering full level is 0.03db

and how i come up with the 5.97db

as i master our records i do a pre and our master then send it to the record companies masterer who uses ours as a reference to his final master
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Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by jhulk »

i mostly record at -6to -12db

and then try and mix at around -12db per channel to get the master volume at about -6db

i never compress the input audio i use only good quality pre either solid state neve or tube based

i use compressors afterwards so i always have a nice clean dry vocal or sounds this is because we have to send our stems to the remixers who create different dance mixes

so we always have a clean original version

then we add compression on a buss channel first for gelling all the tracks to that channel

we only use limiters on the final inserts as a set and forget so that it does not clip

its easy to add effects but impossible to get rid off once they have it all eq and d-sessing for vocal is done on vocal channel before compression so that when compressed its not attenuated

always mix with lots of frequency holes so that things have there own place and sit well in a mix

and your ears are the best tools
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Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by auntybiotic »

hello - heres what i do.

- surgical eqing of stems. max true peak of any stem is -12db.
- optional (run stems into my desk and out again for warmth if desired)
- sum to stereo bus ( i go for MAX -10db true peak)
- apply any further obvious subtractive eq / spectral balance control (brainworx digital and the scope sbc are good for this) - brainworx allows you to get surgical on the mid and sides.
- compress as desired to get the desried dynamic range ( i like to parallel compress, recently via the dna MASTERCOMP)
- final eq as / if required ( again i use Brainworx digital as has great stereo width control)
- optimaster (as has a great multiband) and / OR Brickmaster back into daw ( i use reaper).

good luck - so many ways to skin a cat, but most important thing is get it right in the mix !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by ronnie »

Thanks to everyone in this thread. I learned a heckuva lot. :o
irrelevance

Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by irrelevance »

jhulk wrote:mastering full level is 0.03db

and how i come up with the 5.97db

as i master our records i do a pre and our master then send it to the record companies masterer who uses ours as a reference to his final master
That's a good idea. Thanks.
irrelevance

Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by irrelevance »

ronnie wrote:Thanks to everyone in this thread. I learned a heckuva lot. :o
Me too ;-)

I'm trying to find the sospubs article that I read that was a great summary of all aspects of mastering that musicians should become acquainted with. Also forgot to mention watched a great tutorial at macprovid Audio concepts with Joe Albano. Never really got the hang of the various db reference levels and that's coming from a guy who studied electronics (nearly 20 years back now!!), op amp operation Vin/Vout etc but obviously never got the whole ratio reference.


On a side note I've put in ten + years so far just composing,arranging, messing around, listening, reading working the gear and now I'm finally happy with what's being produced it's time to become more of the student again in the other areas >BUT< I don't want to wait another ten + to get to a point of actually releasing something! :o So appreciate there might be frustration or the desire to drop a sarcastic comment when reading posts like this which may come across as "please show me the recipe for a great sounding track" when in fact it's just that I feel comfortable asking questions like that here and confident that the answer(s) will be good and hopefully relevant to the gear that I have, which in my mind makes it that little bit easier!
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ronnie
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Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by ronnie »

Is it possible to use the Brainworx Scope plugin on 5.1? If so how does one purchase an activation key? Nevermind...
garyb wrote:....the transient designer will be missed, but that type of plugin can easily be done by someone else. the BX will be missed, but the designer of the BX plugin is still with the Scope platform, more committed than ever. this isn't that big of a deal.
Hmmmm... fair enough. Skip the BX as I now have the DAS MASTER IT. I can't find the DAS TRID anywhere though, any ideas on that? Trying to tweak my mastering chain.
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ronnie
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Re: Need help with loudness maximising chain

Post by ronnie »

Still looking for DAS TRID and MASTER IT EQ Presets..... :(
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