New Device to Replace the STS

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YISH313z
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New Device to Replace the STS

Post by YISH313z »

Gary, would it be easier for Soniccore to simply drop the Akai innards of the STS and maybe replace it with something like SFZ to get it working on 64 bit?

Or is it more difficult than that.

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garyb
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by garyb »

to make a new professional sampler?
more difficult than that.
nothing is difficult if you can just throw enough money at it, though...

also, what makes the STS cool is the Akai format. i think sampling is something that's otherwise done really well in the native realm. dsps aren't really as much of an advantage to a sampler as they are for a compressor, eq, mixer or synth.

w_ellis
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by w_ellis »

I actually had a cunning plan on this front, which I just haven't had time to look at given the amount of things on the ScopeSync roadmap. Essentially, it should be quite possible to create a VST host that runs inside Scope and then the world would be your oyster re. choosing a sampler plugin. For example, linuxsampler is a well regarded sampler that is free.

Juce includes a VST plugin host and someone who is proficient at implementing device drivers should be able to stitch in some MIDI and Audio I/O using the Scope libraries to allow it to operate inside the Scope application.

Obviously doing this would also open up lots of other doors for sound creation in Scope...

YISH313z
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by YISH313z »

I try to ignore it, but everytime i here a sampler done in a dsp chip it does not sound the same as Native.

ellis, wouldn't a vst or linux plugin have to be rewritten to run on the Scope DSP; different coding?

YISH313z
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by YISH313z »

im even as we speak, trying to scap an Amiga emulator together to be used as a sampler

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Sounddesigner
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by Sounddesigner »

YISH313z wrote:I try to ignore it, but everytime i here a sampler done in a dsp chip it does not sound the same as Native.
I always thought the SCOPE samplers sounded better than Native to, but recently Sonar added Addictive Drums 2 and thus I'm not so sure any more, atleast not with AD2 wich I think does a few tricks to overcome the typical flaws (atleast that's what I interpreted from the developer's answer when I asked why I couldn't load my own samples in AD2, he basically stated those tricks won't allow for it). Have you tried Addictive Drums 2?

I would like to see a better sampler solution for SCOPE myself but also know the reality wich is S|C are struggling to accomplish the more important things. Hopefully SCOPE 6 is finished soon and then a new sampler would be icing on the cake. ATM Native is quite a bit more convenient in my situation.

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astroman
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by astroman »

a sampler consists of 3 modules: recording, playback and postprocessing
the 1st one is completely unrelated to DSP
2nd one does NOT benefit from dedicated hardware
(as the STS 5000 proofs: none of it's 'special' functions are available in realtime, only recorded stuff applies)

so what's left is filter and fx output processing...
easily done by feeding whatever sample player to Modular or other devices

if you sense something's just 'not right' (with a native sampler) then it's probably in it's post processing - not the sample/playback engine
the latter would be pretty much the same in native and DSP environments

I'd estimate only 1% of sample users today would want to go the Emu/Akai way of things
(a full set of individual filter/envelope values encoded in the program)
it's just to time consuming... and if you're after that: the respective hardware has never been cheeaper
(seen full AKAI XL3000 go for about 100€, for 300 you get a top EMU)

it's just not worth the effort: as mentioned 'classic' programs run quite well on STS
for 'creative sampling' it's outdated - imho even midi is more of an obstacle than helpful
check out some videos of SamplR on the iPad and try to figure how to do a similiar thing in a sequencer...

the app alone IS a reason to buy an iPad - if one is into 'sampling as a soundsource' ;)
it's internal reverb easily rivals Scope's in that particular flavour...
btw: room size (and delay) are adjustable in realtime without glitches

bottom line:
you just HAVE to face it, that Scope isn't the one and only benchmark for soundquality anymore
so why bother with a concept which already delivers 1 perfect solution ?
there's few (if anything at all) to gain beyond...
it never will be able to do the interactive fun part - and it can't beat the price of the ARM mass hardware

cheers, Tom

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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by petal »

welly wellwell, a mighty knight has fallen ;)

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astroman
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by astroman »

not really :D
otherwise I wouldn't have installed Scope 3.1 on the trustworthy TUSL-C under Win 98 recently (for VDAT) :o
but I try to use my ears
and those clearly tell that the BIAS amp emulation (on iPad) smokes anything that Softube ever did on Scope
as an FM addict I cannot but admit that TF7 rules over NI
the Synth apps from Waldorf and Palm have aliasing free filters ... and all the Wavetable madness mighty sound
Scope rules with Modular and routing, it's mixer engine... still more than enough to offer
(but it's not everything)

cheers, Tom

hubird

Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by hubird »

astroman wrote:check out some videos of SamplR on the iPad and try to figure how to do a similiar thing in a sequencer...

the app alone IS a reason to buy an iPad - if one is into 'sampling as a soundsource' ;)
it's internal reverb easily rivals Scope's in that particular flavour...
btw: room size (and delay) are adjustable in realtime without glitches
I can second that, SamplR is top: fast, flexible, good sound.
I'm working on a setup to integrate my iPad in my mac DAW, as the iPad is my new (multi)synth and bus routing control.
Thinking of a Roland interface of 200,- to connect for audio transmitting.

Sometimes I think I recognize the sound of my former old Kurzweil sampler in songs I listen to, and for that (freq. filters!) I regret not having the machine anymore.
But for a modern fast workflow the old machines can't beat working on a tablet.
A lot of pro developers left their jobs for developing for tablets, so there's no reason to think music tablet apps are toys...
For 300,- euro you have plenty top synths, drum emulations (808, 909), sampler(s) and mixing/bussing software, go figure!

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dante
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by dante »

The 2 best reasons to have sampling in Scope would be : 1) Convenience 2) Load balancing. When host runs out of puff and you can offload something to DSP - well that's kinda the primary reason DSP exists. But performance advantages might be limited to what could be pre-loaded into DSP storage. Anything that streams from host storage over PCI or PCIe might end up taxing system closer to peaks.
Last edited by dante on Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

YISH313z
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by YISH313z »

Astroman, I couldn't find anything on SampleIR in the App Store or online, can you provide a link?

Also, if I'm understanding you correctly, what your saying is I can achieve the same sound as the STS sampler by processing my vst sampler through Scope/modular? Can you suggest some dev or modules that demonstrates this point?
Last edited by YISH313z on Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sunmachine
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

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astroman
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by astroman »

well, it will probably not be exactly the same sound if you refer to piano-type instruments or drums
(decay phase filtered dynamically for individual keys, which 'classic' sound programs à la Akai or SoundFont sometimes do)
but today that style of 'programming' isn't used much anyway
and even STS does NOT import such settings from a Soundfont ... ;)

as mentioned:
Modular is an obvious choice - it offeres a lot of variations, midi + audio control signals
and even more filters than EMU...

as a bonus: look under 'No christmas special this year'
I'll ask Santa for a small deposit :D

cheers, Tom

jhulk
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by jhulk »

i8n the 32bit os the sts performs as its supposed to in modular you use raw multisample maps

and the use the synths features of your creations in modular

we use a mac with prologic and a firewire interface from focusrite i then plug my scopes adats into the focusrite adat and an adat expander from focusrite which has the other scope system pluged in

i then have 18 analog outs from the focusrite into the hardware mixer

i run the 32bit vsti on the scope systems

and modular and synths

everything else is done on the mac

the mac is just used like a tape recorder for the audio recording

every piece works to its advantage like hardware

all the hardware synths go to a 2 96 way batam patchbays and go to the analog ins on the focusrite sound cards which gives us 56 total inputs via adat and analog inputs

from the 3 studio rooms

its been easy to plug any device in and trigger it via midi via the midi patchbay and plug its output into a sound card input

i made the hardware for this via xlr midi sockets and cat 5e which gives me 4 pairs of midi per cable

and i made all the wiring

its made my life very easy

its only when you try to do a all in one box solution that needs 64bit os that problems arise

neuromantik
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by neuromantik »

Uhh sampling is more than just sample playback and post processing. Personally I would love to get the jaded 800 patch to work again, as well as make own modular patches with fizmo translets, tg33 pcms etc. All of these require a basic sample player like modular. Kontakt is insufficient in this regards.

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astroman
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by astroman »

neuromantik wrote:Uhh sampling is more than just sample playback and post processing. ...
that what I introduced the SamplR app for (as an example)
but the question in this thread IS about a classic sampler with nothing but sample playback, envelope and filter
(about an Akai emulation without Akai FX engine)

cheers, Tom

YISH313z
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by YISH313z »

My reasoning for the lack of the Akai portion stems from the fact that I'm sure it's an old algorithm that may not play well with 64 bit. I would love for Sts to be implemented in 64 bit as is or with some new features. But seeing how sample playback is still possible in 64 bit through modular, albeit mono only, I figured at least a simple file playback dev that can use sf2 or sfz could be added. Sampling itself can be done in the daw/audio editor. Alas I'm just dreaming of having my scope system back, with what I have now in Win 8. So many companies dropping Winxp support.

I hate how all of the samplers sound in native. I can put my figure in it but my ears tell me otherwise.

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astroman
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by astroman »

trust your ears...
that's also true for EMUs free sound set for their native Software Proteus - sounds like stale beer...
completely different from all hardware that could run exactly the same samples
(a lot of folks still stick with the old hardware for that reason)
but not all native code is created equal... ;)

btw the incompatibility with 64bit is another indicator that STS does a lot of processing on the CPU
(the old code most likely uses adress calculations with sideeffects in extended memory)
DSPs run in their own local memory, with no relation to the adress space of the OS ...

cheers, Tom

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dante
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Re: New Device to Replace the STS

Post by dante »

astroman wrote:that's also true for EMUs free sound set for their native Software Proteus - sounds like stale beer...
I had hardware Proteus in early 90th - was the best sounding thing ever in those days. Now, I run EMU Proteus refill for Reason - which sounds just as good although my ears are old.

The whole thing with Creamware samplers is they are great for legacy AKAI libraries but the industry has moved on - first to Giga and now to Kontakt etc. Yes, there are still producers who buy AKAI samplers, same as they buy lots of 2nd hand vintage gear. But there would be no demand apart from that for the old AKAI, SF or even Giga formats anymore. Those days are gone and if ever S|C was ever to get back into the sampling space they should do so catering for the new 'streaming' market, and deciding if DSP is any advantage. If its not, leave it to Native.

The most S|C should do IHMO (assuming rights) is maybe release the source code of Volksampler VST version so that some coding entrepreneurs could rework to 64 bit or wrap it like JBridge. That would allow AKAI / STS library owners to run their stuff Native on 64bit OS.

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