Ferrofish AE

[Ricardo]

The Ferrofish A16 AE is ADAT only and cheaper than the full version with MADI. So before I drop the cash, the question is: Will Scope 6 be MADI compatible?
Anyone?

[jksuperstar]

Scope 6 will be a collection of software and DSP code.

MADI is a hardware protocol.

Do you mean to ask if S|C is going to release an option card for xite, or maybe all new DSP cards that have a MADI connector?

[sunmachine]

If you'll need MADI in the future, the Ferrofish AE can be upgraded.

[Bud Weiser]

If you'll need MADI in the future, the Ferrofish AE can be upgraded.

Exactly, and I´d wish there were a Ferrofish ZLE (Z-Link Edition),- and upgradable too.
Or a Z-Link module for the Ferrofish AE,- similar to a/the MADI upgrade module ...

Bud

[garyb]

SC has explored a MADI module for the XITE, to replace the z-link i/o.
it could happen if the economics happened to work out.
it wouldn't happen for quite some time in the foreseeable future, however.

[hubird]

crowdfunding by users?

[Bud Weiser]

SC has explored a MADI module for the XITE, to replace the z-link i/o.
it could happen if the economics happened to work out.
it wouldn't happen for quite some time in the foreseeable future, however.

Well,- explored ...

That´s why I mentioned a Z-Link expansion module for the Ferrofish AE, just because I think it´s much, much easier to realize and possibly cheaper too.
In fact it would be an A16 Ultra w/ the features of the A16mkII,- independent gain adjustment per I/O channel p.ex..
That would be a unit which works for what we have NOW and the XITE-1 (or -1D) keeps what it is.

I think many XITE users want a A16mkII w/ Z-Link for additional analog I/Os up to 96K all channels usable and prefer using the ADAT I/Os for connecting slave-machine´s audio card´s ADAT ports.

Are the Z-Link I/Os on XITE boxes on a separate daughterboard for easy exchange ?

Bud

[garyb]

an A16 with z-link would be up to Juergen. i've spoken to him about that, but he's more interested in providing SC with the info for MADI.

yes, the z-link is a daughterboard that could be swapped out.

crowdfunding by users?
that would probably work.

[Bud Weiser]

an A16 with z-link would be up to Juergen. i've spoken to him about that, but he's more interested in providing SC with the info for MADI.

O.k., so he has no interest in making another (Z-Link) expansion board for the A16mkII, probably because of not getting enough customers worldwide.

yes, the z-link is a daughterboard that could be swapped out.

That´s cool !
But up to now, in SCOPE environment we get 32 channels Z-Link (16 in / 16 out), but MADI is 128 channels (64 in/64 out).
How to adress ?
That requires new hardware (MADI) source/destination modules in SCOPE too.

Conclusion:
We don´t see anything new before SCOPE 6 release or later.

I´ll be retired I fear ...

The swapable Z-Link daughterboard, already constructed for XITE,- won´t work for a A16mk II Z-Link hardware upgrade ?

Bud

[Ricardo]

If you'll need MADI in the future, the Ferrofish AE can be upgraded.

Thanks Sunmachine. That was reassuring.

and thanks to all for your responses and discussion.

Keep safe

[garyb]

The swapable Z-Link daughterboard, already constructed for XITE,- won´t work for a A16mk II Z-Link hardware upgrade ?

Bud

maybe....
that would be something only Ferrofish could address.

my understanding is that the MADI modules for Scope aren't that big of a deal.
time and money are though...

[happycritter]

When using a Ferrofish w/ an XITE, and the Ferrofish is the only digital audio source (for tracking purposes only), is there any benefit to an external clock (sort of a re-hash from an earlier inquiry - sorry)?

Although the ADAT lightpipe I/Os are an industry standard, my limited experience with it has not been satisfying (passable, but nowhere near the quality as the analog INs). Thus, I prefer to see another I/O option w/ the XITE + Ferrofish arrangment.

The benefits of implementing MADI as the foundation for system expansion among multiple Ferrofish boxes is brilliant. Has S | C even constructed a protoype XITE w/ MADI? It's been out around a decade now...

[dante]

my understanding is that the MADI modules for Scope aren't that big of a deal. time and money are though...

Read: Scope MADI modules can be implemented in a 6.x point release at any time after Scope 6.0 ... IF theres a business case for manufacturing an XITE MADI daughterboard in the first place.

[Ricardo]

When using a Ferrofish w/ an XITE, and the Ferrofish is the only digital audio source (for tracking purposes only), is there any benefit to an external clock (sort of a re-hash from an earlier inquiry - sorry)?

Although the ADAT lightpipe I/Os are an industry standard, my limited experience with it has not been satisfying (passable, but nowhere near the quality as the analog INs). Thus, I prefer to see another I/O option w/ the XITE + Ferrofish arrangment.

The benefits of implementing MADI as the foundation for system expansion among multiple Ferrofish boxes is brilliant. Has S | C even constructed a protoype XITE w/ MADI? It's been out around a decade now...

Interesting about the light pipe. Could you clarify as to what you mean by quality. Do you mean sound/signal quality?
Does anyone agree with this, as this is a deal breaker?

[garyb]

When using a Ferrofish w/ an XITE, and the Ferrofish is the only digital audio source (for tracking purposes only), is there any benefit to an external clock (sort of a re-hash from an earlier inquiry - sorry)?

Although the ADAT lightpipe I/Os are an industry standard, my limited experience with it has not been satisfying (passable, but nowhere near the quality as the analog INs). Thus, I prefer to see another I/O option w/ the XITE + Ferrofish arrangment.

The benefits of implementing MADI as the foundation for system expansion among multiple Ferrofish boxes is brilliant. Has S | C even constructed a protoype XITE w/ MADI? It's been out around a decade now...

that depends.

have you spent at least thousands on your control room and recording room's acoustics? do you have more than two digital devices to sync?
if both answers are "no", then no, you definitely don't need an external clock.
if either answer is "yes", then you might consider an external clock.

as soon as you are ready to fund the work, i'm sure a prototype can be made. you will have to hire the extra engineers and code writers.
i doubt if you will get even a fraction of your investment back just because of economic realities.
or...
you could just wait until Holger has an opportunity to do it. yes, this will take some good fortune, but it's not even close to impossible. of course, everyone's resources are limited right now, but these things can sometimes change rapidly.

i do agree that iMADI is, or at least should be, a priority. please don't think that since it doesn't exist that idiots have been sitting and spinning. well, there may have been some of that, human beings and all...

as to ADAT quality, well, ir's all in the converters inn't? really good converters sound as good as really good analog i/o. the very best analog devices just sound best, period, but the very best digital devices just sound best, too. first the source quality, then the cable(makes more difference that most consumer electronics), then the micpre, if it's a mic or hiz device that needs gain, then the AD. for best results every step of the way must be the best to achieve the best results and your mileage may vary. there aren't problems with ADAT, though. it very reliably transmits data. MADI is just more info through the same type of system and the same optical cable. one thing about using the A16, you'll have good converters. they will accurately digitize whatever quality signal that you give it, and it will accurately transmute data into musical sounding audio. a good engineer can do Grammy worthy work with it. of course, there are other very fine AD/DAs, many 5x the price. use the best products you can afford if i can give advice, then forget about all that and use the stuff until it breaks and/or you can get better/add to it, but don't think it's the gear that's the point. it's not computers or analog or anything. it's just sound. make sure the room is the first place to spend some money if you want to hear the best.

thanks for the opportunity to rant.

[Ricardo]

Thanks Gary, I enjoy a good rant, especially when I can say yes to your comments, and I completely understand what you're saying. I've done the room, have quality monitoring, am using mid to high end mics through class A preamps, a fully balanced system. I just want to know if all my efforts before the ADDA conversion are going to be worthwhile if I put the A16 in the signal chain. I don't record EDM, or ambience or R&B. I record real instruments, and have a couple of very nice OTB processors which I want to be able to route to and from. I'd also like to mix down via DA to a summing box and be able to master to a point.
Do I qualify for a Ferrofish, or do I need to go for a Lynx or similar? That's all.
And the answer is...............cue Gary

[Bud Weiser]

The swapable Z-Link daughterboard, already constructed for XITE,- won´t work for a A16mk II Z-Link hardware upgrade ?

Bud

maybe....
that would be something only Ferrofish could address.

my understanding is that the MADI modules for Scope aren't that big of a deal.
time and money are though...

My understanding is, MADI is the most prefered solution for all the users needing more than 16 or 32 channels ADDA.
You can realize 32 analog I/Os already w/ an ADAT and another Z-Link converter,- no need for expensive MADI.

I think Ferrofish would sell more A16mkII w/ ADAT and Z-Link to SCOPE PCI card w/ Z-Link plates and XITE-1 and -1D users.
Most are fine w/ additional 16 ADDA but want independently adjustable input gains,- so A16mkII is benefit over A16Ultra and not only because of better converters.
Most like to have the ADAT ports free on XITE and PCI cards just to connect the audio of a 2nd machine via ADAT lightpipe.

Not so many need the MADI and very long digital multicore runs.

It´s a disadvantage a A16mkII AE occupies both ADAT connections on a XITE-1 / 1-D.

IMO, flexibility is the keyword.
Have a quality ADDA, 16 ch. w/ independent adjustable input gains and several additional digital I/O options.
ADAT as standard, Z-Link and MADI as options on a daughterboard which fits the expansion slot.

The, for the time being, cheaper and easier to realize is the Z-Link, also because the Z-Link hardware I/O source/destination modules already exist in SCOPE.

No new SCOPE-software-coding necessary, just only a bord w/ Z-Link connectors, a pin-compatible ribbon to internal A16 mobo and probably a firmware update supporting Z-Link protocol.

Ferrofish should think about that.

Bud

[garyb]

Thanks Gary, I enjoy a good rant, especially when I can say yes to your comments, and I completely understand what you're saying. I've done the room, have quality monitoring, am using mid to high end mics through class A preamps, a fully balanced system. I just want to know if all my efforts before the ADDA conversion are going to be worthwhile if I put the A16 in the signal chain. I don't record EDM, or ambience or R&B. I record real instruments, and have a couple of very nice OTB processors which I want to be able to route to and from. I'd also like to mix down via DA to a summing box and be able to master to a point.
Do I qualify for a Ferrofish, or do I need to go for a Lynx or similar? That's all.
And the answer is...............cue Gary

the A16 is VERY good. i'd put it up there with AD/DAs two or three times the price, easily. i've compared to Lynx and the newest Apogees and the A16 is as good as either.

[garyb]

tell them Bud.

[happycritter]

Interesting about the light pipe. Could you clarify as to what you mean by quality. Do you mean sound/signal quality?
Does anyone agree with this, as this is a deal breaker?

Clarification is in order:

I do not own, nor have I ever used a Ferrofish. I'm sure it's a fine device, and I am definitely interested in one as it is a very affordable (and expandable) solution.

I was referring to the signal quality of ADAT I/Os through my rig (WRDA-7 -> Pulsar I 4dsp).
Could just be the cabling as I borrowed an ADATxt and had the same results (used 48 & 44.1 and no real difference in audio quality).

have you spent at least thousands on your control room and recording room's acoustics? do you have more than two digital devices to sync?
if both answers are "no", then no, you definitely don't need an external clock.
if either answer is "yes", then you might consider an external clock.

Even in a poorly tuned room, the ADAT cards (Ramsa WRDA-7) and ADATxt both sounded quite smeared compared to the analog (which is AD/DA'd by the board). Which lead me along this line of reasoning:

as to ADAT quality, well, ir's all in the converters inn't? really good converters sound as good as really good analog i/o. the very best analog devices just sound best, period, but the very best digital devices just sound best, too. first the source quality, then the cable(makes more difference that most consumer electronics), then the micpre, if it's a mic or hiz device that needs gain, then the AD.

I suspected the TOSlink cable, but to my mind either there's a (detectable) stream of 1&0s or there isn't, so how big of a deal is a fiber-optic cable's 'quality'? Since there weren't any clicks/drop-outs then the cable works (as opposed to not work).

as soon as you are ready to fund the work, i'm sure a prototype can be made. you will have to hire the extra engineers and code writers.
i doubt if you will get even a fraction of your investment back just because of economic realities.
or...
you could just wait until Holger has an opportunity to do it. yes, this will take some good fortune, but it's not even close to impossible. of course, everyone's resources are limited right now, but these things can sometimes change rapidly.

Being bold as brass I would say I could probably figure-out a MADI solution but it would take me about two years as my full-time hobby. The MADI specs are written and examples of the technology exist so it isn't that great a puzzle to solve.

a good engineer can do Grammy worthy work with it.

Amen to that! Once I have an XITE, the limitations aren't in the gear anymore...
Then again, thinking of the Beatles, I don't think there are limitations to the gear...

t's not computers or analog or anything. it's just sound. make sure the room is the first place to spend some money if you want to hear the best.

I read, and then re-read Phillip Newell's "Studio Monitoring Design" and it was excellent. Among his many good points he makes it plain that the listening room is part of the "signal chain."

thanks for the opportunity to rant.

Thanks for ranting!

Personally, I love the look of the Ferrofish as well - those TFT meters are the bee's knees!
I like meters. Especially since living in monitor world for a few years...