Is Sonic Core still alive

A place to talk about whatever Scope music/gear related stuff you want.

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emotive
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by emotive »

It's all good, but what happens when i want to buy an x-ite box? Who do i turn to and what new (virtual) devices are on the horizon?

chris13
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by chris13 »

Thanks again Gary, good night guys maybe has soon as possible ! :wink:

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garyb
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by garyb »

emotive wrote:It's all good, but what happens when i want to buy an x-ite box? Who do i turn to and what new (virtual) devices are on the horizon?
well, there's the S|C webshop.
for the most part, the XITE has the same plugins as the PCI cards, it just has a lot more power and it sounds a LOT better.

emotive
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by emotive »

garyb wrote:well, there's the S|C webshop.
for the most part, the XITE has the same plugins as the PCI cards, it just has a lot more power and it sounds a LOT better.
why does it sound better?

hubird

Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by hubird »

64 bit :lol:

emotive
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by emotive »

dante wrote:Steinberg MIDEX 8
Yamaha SW1000XG
Yamaha DSP Factory
Nemesis Gigasampler

Big companies, big names, huge dealerships, longevity of investment = 0, 64 bit support = 0
i thought SB fixed the midex

emotive
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by emotive »

hubird wrote:64 bit
i think Gary was talking about converters was he not, or was he talking about the sharcs?

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garyb
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by garyb »

that comment was sarcasm, i believe.
64bit operation sounds the same as 32bit operation.

it sounds better because the card isn't inside the case, a world of radiation. it sounds better because of better AD/DA convertors.
of course the algos are pretty much the same as the PCI cards. in the end, regardless of the reason, it sounds better. :D

hubird

Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by hubird »

garyb wrote:that comment was sarcasm, i believe.
could've been so in another context, but not this time so really :)

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dante
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by dante »

emotive wrote:
dante wrote:Steinberg MIDEX 8
Yamaha SW1000XG
Yamaha DSP Factory
Nemesis Gigasampler

Big companies, big names, huge dealerships, longevity of investment = 0, 64 bit support = 0
i thought SB fixed the midex
No - they didnt - a solution came from a community developer.

Steinberg just posted a link to it, but SB officially dropped support of MIDEX. Not just for 64 bit, but totally.

In the past, I may have accepted that as normal, but now being aquainted with S|C approach, it makes Steinberg seem arrogant by comparison.

Thats how it is.

emotive
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by emotive »

To my way of thinking, SB are like SC, there are no alternatives when you need certain features like chord editing for example and i know it's on Logic for Apple but Scope is not available on Mac.

neuromantik
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by neuromantik »

Although I appreciate most of what's been said, I have mixed feelings about S|C's current strategy.. Personally I agree with everything that Gary & Dante said about the durability of the platform but I do feel that S|C could be more forthcoming in regards to its image.

For instance, while I do applaud the NSA sales for being total bargains, for many legacy devices they were quite unfulfilling as an Xite owner as most of the JB devices were not and will never be optimized for Xite and despite have 6x PCI power I'm unable to load even one Solaris voice @ 96khz. If I'd have known that the sales were targeted at PCI owners I would have chosen the target cards accordingly, although I would much rather pay full price for a fully optimized 6 voice Solaris on Xite.

Then the whole sampler/sequencer 64bit debacle. We'll seeing as one of my passions is reconstructing romplers (jaded patch) and doing modular/granular sample mangling then having working sample pools and oscs are kind of the whole point. No one wants to reproduce a Kontakt or Gigasampler in SCOPE, but some of us are stuck with 64bit OSes yet want to be able to read bits off of a disk. I can run a 32bit version of cubase on Win7 64, so pardon me if I don't fully grasp the complexity of recompiling a dll to address longs rather than integers in order to read some data. I'm not being critical I'm just misinformed. Its also kind of a let down that many of the stock and 3rd party synths with sequencers simply do not arpeggiate anymore (although my recently acquired mattomat is an acceptable workaround).

Despite all that, I think S|C cares as they sponsored faxis wonderful videos and the support has been awesome on all non regression accounts. And of course well the community is simply the best I've seen (and I lurk on many sw/hw forums) with talented and active contributors.

I might be the only one here thinking this way but I feel that my 21 DSP scope rig works great, has some quirks, but is fine on my 32bit winXP and will stay that way since I never plan on touching it ever again. That being said, I feel that S|C should stop supporting the old creamware cards, focus exclusively on Xite sw and devices, and if a device can't run at least as good than on a PCI SCOPE rig, remove it from their shop and focus on updating modular as it is for me and many, the crown jewel of the kingdom :) (and with SDK unsurpassed)

happycritter
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by happycritter »

garyb wrote:it doesn't matter is there's never one iota of further developement in Scope. it's never going to sound worse. it's never going to be useless any more than an old neve mic pre or an old 1176 compressor or an old Prophet 5 or Fender rhodes are useless. it's buy-it-once and you're through.
Amen.

Nobody every speaks of the obsolescence of these items...

From my point of view, this notion arises from the daily barrage of marketing drivel compounded by the fact that it is viewed by many as "computer hardware" thus it must "certainly" obey the market-obsolescence cycle that computers do... :roll:
garyb wrote:NOTHING has even approached it in function, even after all this time. it works well with almost all software and pretty much all hardware, connecting those two worlds.
That is a stunning achievement right there. Worth the price of admission as far as I am concerned (saving pennies for this 'soon to be obsolete' gear).
garyb wrote:yes! it would be great to have a daily blog where S|C employees kept track of their every activity so that the public could decide if they were really spending their time wisely, but then again, it just won't happen. even putting a new page up for a sale is a major week long event that stops all other work. there isn't staff for that type of thing.
From the inside of a miserable cell-block composed of patterned-taupe cubicles looking out:
After a corporate buy-out, it came down from mgt. that we had to track our own time on a project for each project (in a crazy fast-paced saltmine kind of dungeon) for a whole quarter (3mos.). And while I intellectually agreed with the intelligence of gathering useful metrics such as this for numerous reasons - let me tell you: it was a PIA! when trying to get the 'real work' finished. We all rejoiced when that was over! :D

So, I can't imagine regular site updates being anymore productive for a small company when most everything is covered for marketing (I would prefer many more technical details on the website myself - even the mundane junk such as power consumption, blah...blah...blah)
xw8400
2.33 GHz Xeon Quad core (E5345 Socket 771) x2
32Gb ECC buffered memory
AMD HD7700
Samsung 850 EVO 250Gb root drive
Windows 7 Pro (64bit)
Sonar Platinum
XITE-1 (flipping awesome!)

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dante
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by dante »

garyb wrote:yes! it would be great to have a daily blog where S|C employees kept track of their every activity so that the public could decide if they were really spending their time wisely, but then again, it just won't happen.
Exactly, it just wont happen, at least until there is Scope 6.0. So lets grow a bridge and get over it, make music and leave Holger and his team cut code !!!!

emotive
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by emotive »

Unless SC obey SB standards (which for the most part they have); Scope is dead in the water, unless you are happy using an obsolete DAW and OS.

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Bud Weiser
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by Bud Weiser »

emotive wrote:To my way of thinking, SB are like SC, there are no alternatives when you need certain features like chord editing for example and i know it's on Logic for Apple but Scope is not available on Mac.
OMG, now I see where it all comes from,- you´re a Apple MAC and Logic user being frustrated about not everything for PC is available for you the easy way.

Almost every Apple Logic user I now is most often,- sorry I have to say that,- a musician and/or producer who just only uses a stock computer w/ a stock OS and a stock DAW application´s UI.
There aren´t much tech skills necessary to use a Mac Pro and Logic.

And I tell you that as a former C-Lab/Emagic beta tester who knows the Creator, Notator and Logic masterminds personally from the past.
Same for the founders of Steinberg b.t.w..

I was a big fan of Notator and made professional music w/ it and most users of former C-Lab software continued using Emagic Logic and Apple Logic later.
It was the easiest.
It´s the same w/ Protools,- who used Protools from the begining almost never changed,- used Logic w/ Digidesign hardware instead and Protools in addition,- so all became "studio standard" already in times when no big competitors were present.

Well, I stopped w/ Logic 6 already,- still have G4 machines (desktop/laptop) running Logic.
I still have ATARIs too,- just because of the s##tload of old MIDI songs I recycle from time to time.

While Logic is still the best in MIDI discipline incl. the MIDI score editor and comes w/ the most ready-for-the-user content, Cubase and Nuendo became the better audio engines many years ago already and Wavelab is still the best Wave Editor application out there.
When Emagic and later Apple decided for not to support PCs anymore, I already started thinking about changing platform.

I buyed Steinberg Cubase VST32 v5 and that was very cool except the MIDI score editor.
I also upgraded to Cubase SX 3 which was also very cool,- except the MIDI score editor.
Actually I´m on Presonus Studio One Pro v2.62,- just because Steinberg wanted too much money for upgrades from SX3.
I now regret I don´t have any MIDI score editor at all unless I power up my old Mac and use it in Logic 6.

But have in mind,- worldwide,- Steinberg has the most users and endless professionals made a switch from Logic to Cubase or Nuendo,- and lately also over to Presonus Studio One.

So, when you´re using Logic on a Mac Pro or actual Mac Powerbook w/ latest OS X, why are you here and type endless posts knowing you´d have to wait years eventually until SCOPE will be OS X ready,- if ever ?

When we see SCOPE 6,- we´ll see it 1st for the PC,- I´m pretty sure.

So, when you want XITE-1D or XITE-1,- you have to buy or assemble a PC, Windows and run SCOPE in 32 or 64Bit in standalone mode on a separate machine beside your Mac Pro w/ Logic.

When you don´t want that,- work w/ the gear you already own or buy UAD Apollo NOW.

But don´t step on our nerves w/ your complaining please.

YOU WON´T SEE SCOPE 6 FOR MAC OS X SOON,- PERIOD !

Bud
S|C Scope/XITE-1 & S|C A16U, Scope PCI & CW A16U

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Bud Weiser
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by Bud Weiser »

emotive wrote: Scope is dead in the water, unless you are happy using an obsolete DAW and OS.
No, SCOPE is dead in the water FOR YOU as long as you´re not patient enough and want all in one box NOW!

What´s an obsolete DAW and OS ?

Do you really think the latest OS X is a better OS than a latest Windows ?

The best OS for Mac was the original MACOS up to v9.22.
To me, the best OS X was 10.4.11 Tiger which was also the one being on the market for the longest time because it was so stable.

You don´t have XITE ... but when I´m not wrong, you have a SCOPE card or SCOPE cards,- have you ?
I know people, at least my friend and tech, using both worlds ...
SCOPE 4.5 on a PCI card (on PCI cards) in a Mac G4 and in addition w/ PCs.
All kind of software like Logic, Cubase, Presonus Studio One & Wavelab.
He himself has a cool little studio and does all kind of mixes, re-mixes as also sound design for film etc..

You cannot make music/sounddesign w/ a similar setup ? :-?

Bud
S|C Scope/XITE-1 & S|C A16U, Scope PCI & CW A16U

hubird

Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by hubird »

Bud Weiser wrote:
emotive wrote: .... SCOPE 4.5 on a PCI card (on PCI cards) in a Mac G4 ....
Bud
Just one card then, as STDM sideplugs prohibit closing the mac side panel because of the supply box.
Duck tape for keeping the airflow right would solve it, but who'd want that?
You need a Quicksilver if you rum more than one full PCI card.
Tell me it isn't true, would love it :)

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Bud Weiser
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by Bud Weiser »

neuromantik wrote:Although I appreciate most of what's been said, I have mixed feelings about S|C's current strategy...

For instance, while I do applaud the NSA sales for being total bargains, for many legacy devices they were quite unfulfilling as an Xite owner as most of the JB devices were not and will never be optimized for Xite and despite have 6x PCI power I'm unable to load even one Solaris voice @ 96khz. If I'd have known that the sales were targeted at PCI owners I would have chosen the target cards accordingly, although I would much rather pay full price for a fully optimized 6 voice Solaris on Xite.
I agree,- I also didn´t know the big ZARG devices will never run flawlessly on a XITE-1.
And according to J.B´s statement over at the J.B. Synthdesign forum, S|C knowed that since years.
Now, I´m not sure if this is because the devices are too complex for the machine and could be updated/upgraded depending on John´s decisions,- or if these devices will never get a chance to be updated/upgraded because it´s impossible.

Nonetheless, the EUR 99.- NSA deal was a bargain for me because the smaller ZARG devices run on my XITE-1, just only the Solaris v5, Quantum Wave and Rotor EX make problems especially w/ polyphony and preset loading process.
But to be fair,- one of the (fixable) issues w/ loading presets is the path for finding "modules" and "samples" etc..
The devices were done in a old SDK and presets were created in old SCOPE versions,- so the application now looks in different locations and finds nothing.

Now, when I own just only ONE (1) Power Pulsar or SCOPE Pro PCI card and a XITE-1, it doesn´t make much difference if I run p.ex. Solaris v5 on the card or the XITE-1,- I´ll still get not more than 2 or 3 voices on both systems and the application will still search for modules and samples in different locations as long you don´t fix the path in each preset and re-save, which is unfortunately extremely boring and time consuming.
neuromantik wrote: Then the whole sampler/sequencer 64bit debacle.
Well, I don´t want to discuss if we really need 64Bit in the audio/MIDI world just only because the computer industry dictates.
I have a old Pentium IV machine set up w/ WinXP SP2 and a Steinberg VSL2020 audio/MIDI card inside ...
I didn´t upgrade Wavelab 4.01b,- so it, still supporting SCSI (!!!), runs on this machine as do other sample related apps like EMXP and so on.
There´s also a Adaptec SCSI card inside that PC,- big advantage when dealing w/ samples and when you possibly saved all your old AKAI and EMU libraries and have hardware sampler left over. I have ...

For sure it would be perfect when SCOPE STS samplers and related modules worked flawlessly in 64Bit, but actually we cannot have all because we all know S|C is a very small company w/ limited ressources, similar to other small boutique companies.
This is not a excuse,- it is a fact we all know and we´re here because we like Creamware/ Sonic Core and SCOPE to a degree and use it.
There is no other way than dealing w/ the facts and wait for SCOPE 6.

It makes no sense wasting time complaining, I´m pretty sure S|C staff knows all the issues very well and has interest in improvements,- but it won´t go faster as it is except they hire a dozen DSP coders what is impossible it seems.
neuromantik wrote: That being said, I feel that S|C should stop supporting the old creamware cards, focus exclusively on Xite sw and devices, and if a device can't run at least as good than on a PCI SCOPE rig, remove it from their shop and focus on updating modular as it is for me and many, the crown jewel of the kingdom :) (and with SDK unsurpassed)
Wise, but eventually not very popular, words !

I also think it´s time to make decisions and privilege the new hardware and related devices.
That´s sad for the PCI card owners and I myself I´m one of these too,- but I always recognize when I´m talking about my XITE-1 and SCOPE w/ other musicians/producers,- they always associate Creamware and "aged and obsolete gear" from the 90s. Especially the Mac users do b.t.w.!

When old Creamware devices don´t work p.ex. in 64Bit,- ditch ´em and make a new device replacing it.
A new sampler/sample player supporting old sample formats like AKAI, EMU and SF2 and WAV would be great and there´s no need for it to replace something advanced and complex like Kontakt.
I´m using Kontakt and I converted AKAI and EMU library stuff for software sampleplayers like Halion and Kontakt,- and it doesn´t sound as good as in STS.
So, a "old sample format" playing device in SCOPE makes sense side by side w/ Kontakt or other native software sample players.
Questionable if we´d urgently need the VDAT when using a DAW,- but I´d think it´s a nice toy for some backing tracks when doing live work.
For me personally, the most unimportant devices in SCOPE are sequencer type ones.
We need a host computer anyway and all kind of step sequencer and modulator stuff also runs natively on slower machines and even w/ small amount of RAM, so we can get this from VST always.

For all the others, there´s something like Mattomat already, isn´t it ?

Bud
S|C Scope/XITE-1 & S|C A16U, Scope PCI & CW A16U

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Bud Weiser
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Re: Is Sonic Core still alive

Post by Bud Weiser »

hubird wrote: Just one card then, as STDM sideplugs prohibit closing the mac side panel because of the supply box.
Duck tape for keeping the airflow right would solve it, but who'd want that?
You need a Quicksilver if you rum more than one full PCI card.
Tell me it isn't true, would love it :)
I´d say you´re right.
I only own ONE PCI card and I use it in a PC.
I could use it in my Mac dual G4 too, but not SCOPE 5.1.

My friend has 3 PCI cards.
He uses 1 Creamware card and SCOPE 4.5 in a Mac w/ Logic 6 or 7 (don´t know exactly) and 2 Creamware cards w/ standalone SCOPE 5.1 in a Win XP PC. There´s also Wavelab in the ballpark.
In another Win 7 PC (quad core Intel i7) runs all the native VST stuff incl. NI Komplete Ultimate using a Creative/EMU PCIe ASIO card together w/ Studio One Pro v2 as the main DAW.
3 machines and they run in sync when needed.
It´s a fully functional and working system,- he don´t want to give it up, does pro audio work instead.

Is it hard to find working Quicksilver machines @ebay?

Bud
S|C Scope/XITE-1 & S|C A16U, Scope PCI & CW A16U

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