Better late than never, woohoo!
http://www.creamware.de/en/Home/gate.asp
Definite a step in the right direction here, even STS3000 can be upgrade to STS4000, then to STS5000 for cheaper than rebuying the 5000!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: subhuman on 2001-07-25 19:01 ]</font>
STS5000 upgrade available!
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algorhythm
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can a sample in the STS5000 be played by midi while the pitch and formant is changed, in realtime ?
I mean, not just *the whole* sample, but midi-notes played *during* a long vocal sample, thereby creating a new melody ?
(the Roland VP9000 can do this)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jw on 2001-07-20 10:42 ]</font>
I mean, not just *the whole* sample, but midi-notes played *during* a long vocal sample, thereby creating a new melody ?
(the Roland VP9000 can do this)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jw on 2001-07-20 10:42 ]</font>
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algorhythm
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..as in trigger the sample with *first* midi note-on. then every following midi note doesn't re-trigger, but 'triggers' just a corresponding pitch in the *ongoing* sample, automatically formant-corrected.
time-stretching of course would be done by the sequencer, not the midi keyboard.
...does the STS 5000 really behave like this ?
as long as there's no demo or having heard it live on some expo, I don't trust any demo-MP3's that might have been done with the sts5000 alone, but no one says, if the 'monk' sample was recorded while played live, i.e. in a 'one-shot realtime situation'
J
time-stretching of course would be done by the sequencer, not the midi keyboard.
...does the STS 5000 really behave like this ?
as long as there's no demo or having heard it live on some expo, I don't trust any demo-MP3's that might have been done with the sts5000 alone, but no one says, if the 'monk' sample was recorded while played live, i.e. in a 'one-shot realtime situation'
J
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algorhythm
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true, true, they could have edited and sequenced it - but that would be awful deceiving, cuz they are advertin it as 'real time' performance an all dat
defex got it - ask him to try for that feature of which you speak . . .
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: algorhythm on 2001-07-20 14:58 ]</font>
defex got it - ask him to try for that feature of which you speak . . .
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: algorhythm on 2001-07-20 14:58 ]</font>
I'm curious how well the STS-5000 does the realtime pitch shifting and time stretching. I have the LinPlug CronoX VSTi and it can do this in realtime too, but it doesn't sound good enough for me. When I play a sample at various pitches while preserving the duration of the sample, I hear a Doppler-like effect and some vibration. I guess those are the formants speaking. I wonder if the quality of the STS-5000 is the same or nearly the same as that of a wave editor like Sound Forge 5.0. If an STS-5000 owner could answer this and/or supply some mp3's as example (other than the ones from the CW site)... 
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lotuz on 2001-07-21 03:07 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lotuz on 2001-07-21 03:07 ]</font>
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Thalamus
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I have the sts5000 in my scope package, and i must say that i'm astonished about its features and quality.
To some stuff its even better than the Roland variphrase. For other things it equals. Then add the many filters, many which is way out like phasing filters, and so on, but they sound awesome.
It does all what you ask in this thread, plus more. The monks example is a true, realtime performance, and it takes about 1 minute to config such a program in the STS5000.
You can do both monophonic "vocoder like" style all up to i dont know how many tones of all perfectly streched and formant corrected samples. Man, i'm playing a whole new string like performance (6 tones), with my singers monophonic verse meterial. and it sounds absolutely inspiring. (just remember, ifyou buy and wanna try this feature rigth away, that you have to calculate the samples first for use with the time/pitch/formant controls!!!)
There is 12 miles down to CronoX from where STS5000 is.
Regards,
Noah Laux
To some stuff its even better than the Roland variphrase. For other things it equals. Then add the many filters, many which is way out like phasing filters, and so on, but they sound awesome.
It does all what you ask in this thread, plus more. The monks example is a true, realtime performance, and it takes about 1 minute to config such a program in the STS5000.
You can do both monophonic "vocoder like" style all up to i dont know how many tones of all perfectly streched and formant corrected samples. Man, i'm playing a whole new string like performance (6 tones), with my singers monophonic verse meterial. and it sounds absolutely inspiring. (just remember, ifyou buy and wanna try this feature rigth away, that you have to calculate the samples first for use with the time/pitch/formant controls!!!)
There is 12 miles down to CronoX from where STS5000 is.
Regards,
Noah Laux
Could you explain this?(just remember, ifyou buy and wanna try this feature rigth away, that you have to calculate the samples first for use with the time/pitch/formant controls!!!)
And what's the average DSP load of the STS-5000? Does it vary much when you use the STS-5000 as a "standard" sampler like the STS-4000 and when you use the special STS-5000 features?
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Thalamus
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- Contact:
Hi all,
<B>First question first...</B>
<UL>jw:
One minute is like recording the source ether direct from you DAW using ASIO into sts5000 inputs, which is smart becurse you will have the rigth startpoint and samplelength, when you later begin to play, or simply by loading the wav file into a program!. Then you should calculate the pitch (3 styles, instrument, vocal, drums), which could be applied to sample, keygroup or the whole program (meaning all the samples in your selected program!). This is only done once. If you dont do it, things will sound pretty strange (but cool for some stuff)
Then you select the time/picth method you like. It could be monophonic (robot-mode) where you tirgger the samples and then play with it. It's the same as using a monophonic bass patch, whenever you release the key, you retrigger the sample, but its playing with the tempo defined by the STS5000
Then there is a picthshift mode, where the key you play is the reference tone, and all samples you play with be in time with each other, but defferend fundamental note. So if you press C and E and G on the keyboard (and your sample has rootkey C), it will play the normal sample, and the sample again, just a third higher in pitch, and then ofcourse the fifth...but they are all in perfect time with each other.
Then there is the autochord mode, where it doesnt matter what rootkey the sample is, you just play you keys (polyphonic), and the sts5000 will play your sample like any of your synths (this is WAY too cool). If you play C and E and G, it would play just that, no matter what tuning your samples are in. This is bit a bit like working tradional with samples, like fx a piano patch, but becourse it streches and pitchshift in realtime eith formant correction, with one one sample, you could almost have the whole piano (well, almost!)
There are even more options, but hey, what about controlling things like formant with your MOD-wheel, or the tempo, or the pitch... or what about assigning the velocity to timestrech, this list goes on and on.</UL>
<B>Now to question no 2.:</B>
<UL>Lotuz:
This is the funny part, actually these extra features is not being calculated by your pulsar card, but uses your CPU. This is not much, though. But what i meant by that quote you made, is explained in my explanation to jw...</UL>
<B>Question 3:</B>
<UL>Lotuz:
Sure, it works best with monophonic sounds, but drumloops are rendered nicely. I specially like to make a drumloop do both hi and low. Meaning i can play fx C4 and E2 at the same time (the beat will have the same tempo, but one high pitched and one low), providing a much wider sounding beat. Sometimes a loop is sounding cool, when you trigger it, and then trigger it again on beat 2 (or whatever), while the first are still playing, but maybe with a defferend pitch. But if you action is the bring in a string sample doing a nice little 5 tone melody (not monophonic) and then strech it or tune it, thats perfectly OK, and it sounds nice too.
All in all, i'll say that the timestreching quality is somewhere between the "high quality mode" in cubase and the amazing MPX algorythm in NUENDO. Its very easy to do all what I descriped, the hard part is finding new interesting ways to do things you never heard before, course this maschine can do that like nothing else. </UL>
well, the next thing to astonish me in this field, is surely MELODYNE, where also the attack, release, vibrato of your sample can be adjusted, and is preserved.) if you havent heard it, check out the samples here: http://www.celemony.com
<B>Hope I was to any help...</B>
_________________
Yours truely
Noah Laux
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Thalamus on 2001-07-21 13:33 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Thalamus on 2001-07-21 13:34 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Thalamus on 2001-07-21 13:38 ]</font>
<B>First question first...</B>
<UL>jw:
One minute is like recording the source ether direct from you DAW using ASIO into sts5000 inputs, which is smart becurse you will have the rigth startpoint and samplelength, when you later begin to play, or simply by loading the wav file into a program!. Then you should calculate the pitch (3 styles, instrument, vocal, drums), which could be applied to sample, keygroup or the whole program (meaning all the samples in your selected program!). This is only done once. If you dont do it, things will sound pretty strange (but cool for some stuff)
Then you select the time/picth method you like. It could be monophonic (robot-mode) where you tirgger the samples and then play with it. It's the same as using a monophonic bass patch, whenever you release the key, you retrigger the sample, but its playing with the tempo defined by the STS5000
Then there is a picthshift mode, where the key you play is the reference tone, and all samples you play with be in time with each other, but defferend fundamental note. So if you press C and E and G on the keyboard (and your sample has rootkey C), it will play the normal sample, and the sample again, just a third higher in pitch, and then ofcourse the fifth...but they are all in perfect time with each other.
Then there is the autochord mode, where it doesnt matter what rootkey the sample is, you just play you keys (polyphonic), and the sts5000 will play your sample like any of your synths (this is WAY too cool). If you play C and E and G, it would play just that, no matter what tuning your samples are in. This is bit a bit like working tradional with samples, like fx a piano patch, but becourse it streches and pitchshift in realtime eith formant correction, with one one sample, you could almost have the whole piano (well, almost!
)There are even more options, but hey, what about controlling things like formant with your MOD-wheel, or the tempo, or the pitch... or what about assigning the velocity to timestrech, this list goes on and on.</UL>
<B>Now to question no 2.:</B>
<UL>Lotuz:
This is the funny part, actually these extra features is not being calculated by your pulsar card, but uses your CPU. This is not much, though. But what i meant by that quote you made, is explained in my explanation to jw...</UL>
<B>Question 3:</B>
<UL>Lotuz:
Sure, it works best with monophonic sounds, but drumloops are rendered nicely. I specially like to make a drumloop do both hi and low. Meaning i can play fx C4 and E2 at the same time (the beat will have the same tempo, but one high pitched and one low), providing a much wider sounding beat. Sometimes a loop is sounding cool, when you trigger it, and then trigger it again on beat 2 (or whatever), while the first are still playing, but maybe with a defferend pitch. But if you action is the bring in a string sample doing a nice little 5 tone melody (not monophonic) and then strech it or tune it, thats perfectly OK, and it sounds nice too.
All in all, i'll say that the timestreching quality is somewhere between the "high quality mode" in cubase and the amazing MPX algorythm in NUENDO. Its very easy to do all what I descriped, the hard part is finding new interesting ways to do things you never heard before, course this maschine can do that like nothing else. </UL>
well, the next thing to astonish me in this field, is surely MELODYNE, where also the attack, release, vibrato of your sample can be adjusted, and is preserved.) if you havent heard it, check out the samples here: http://www.celemony.com
<B>Hope I was to any help...</B>
_________________
Yours truely
Noah Laux
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Thalamus on 2001-07-21 13:33 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Thalamus on 2001-07-21 13:34 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Thalamus on 2001-07-21 13:38 ]</font>
Noah,
thanks for your elaborated answer!
..but.. I am starting to think, that you (and any other STS5000 reading this thread..?) have not heard what the Roland VP9000 can do, and it is what every VP9000 demo show highlights so much:
You can play (with the VP9000) a *new melody!!!* *live !!!* with any solo vocal sample (or any other solo instrument-sample of course).
The (long) (vocal)sample I'm talking about, is some melody-line *by itself*, not just one note !
Get it ?
While you play some keys on the midi keyboard, this one sample is *NOT* re-triggered by every key that you play, but it is *MODULATED* by it: the pitch information of the currently played key is applied to the sample *at that position IN the sample*.
I'm starting to suspect the STS5000 can *not* do this, because I can't read about this feature ("new melody playing, live")explicitly anywhere.
The Monk sample at CW could have been done
these ways (different from VP9000 technique):
A)
Several 'snippets' were created from one (long) Monk sample.
Then the snippets where pitch-shifted at different keyzones manually(!) and played in a *predetermined and fixed* sequence of keys (all of the played keys play only a snippet)
B)
The one (long) Monk sample is triggered by one key, but then the pitch is not changed by other keys (played legato after the first triggering key), but perhaps by a Midi-Track in the sequencer, sending some Midi-CC's to the STS5000.
Both of these methods surely would be a great addition to sampling, but it still would be *way* behind the usability of the VP9000 (although method B comes close...)
Can any STS5000 owner please try this ?
Did I explain clearly ?
Regards,
JW
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jw on 2001-07-21 14:28 ]</font>
thanks for your elaborated answer!
..but.. I am starting to think, that you (and any other STS5000 reading this thread..?) have not heard what the Roland VP9000 can do, and it is what every VP9000 demo show highlights so much:
You can play (with the VP9000) a *new melody!!!* *live !!!* with any solo vocal sample (or any other solo instrument-sample of course).
The (long) (vocal)sample I'm talking about, is some melody-line *by itself*, not just one note !
Get it ?
While you play some keys on the midi keyboard, this one sample is *NOT* re-triggered by every key that you play, but it is *MODULATED* by it: the pitch information of the currently played key is applied to the sample *at that position IN the sample*.
I'm starting to suspect the STS5000 can *not* do this, because I can't read about this feature ("new melody playing, live")explicitly anywhere.
The Monk sample at CW could have been done
these ways (different from VP9000 technique):
A)
Several 'snippets' were created from one (long) Monk sample.
Then the snippets where pitch-shifted at different keyzones manually(!) and played in a *predetermined and fixed* sequence of keys (all of the played keys play only a snippet)
B)
The one (long) Monk sample is triggered by one key, but then the pitch is not changed by other keys (played legato after the first triggering key), but perhaps by a Midi-Track in the sequencer, sending some Midi-CC's to the STS5000.
Both of these methods surely would be a great addition to sampling, but it still would be *way* behind the usability of the VP9000 (although method B comes close...)
Can any STS5000 owner please try this ?
Did I explain clearly ?
Regards,
JW
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jw on 2001-07-21 14:28 ]</font>
If you read this:
http://www.celemony.com/melodyne/Details.html
...and now imagine the changes (pitch etc.) in the part titled "Change your music while it plays" are done with the keyboard, not with the mouse.. that is what I mean.
Can the STS5000 do it ?
http://www.celemony.com/melodyne/Details.html
...and now imagine the changes (pitch etc.) in the part titled "Change your music while it plays" are done with the keyboard, not with the mouse.. that is what I mean.
Can the STS5000 do it ?
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Thalamus
- Posts: 393
- Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Denmark (yes, we do have nice blondes)
- Contact:
Dear JW,
I dont think you are listening to what I say:
The sts5000 can do all what you descripe...
I own my self the VP9000, so I know what I'm talking about.
Sure you can play with you material live, I just meant that RELEASING all the keys you hold, would retrigger the samples. But if you dont, you can, excatly like the VP9000, play a melody with you sample, and it will keep the tempo, but adjust the pitch (and formant). And better still, the only length restriction is the ram in your computer.
I'm sorry if my explanation was hard to understand to you, i'll try to do better next time.
I say the STS5000 can do the same as VP9000 and more, becourse you have the pulsar/scope routing system, and costum effects and so on, well I just love pulsars flexebility, but I hope that more "PRO" companies like Waves, TC & etc would realize this, and make their exelent stuff available to the creamware community.
here are a bare-bone example of the STS5000, my girlfriend singing a little tune, and me modifying for fun with the sts5000. Sure I could have done more to the formants, but alll i do here, is to take the sample,and play live with it on my keyboard...
<B>original singing:</B>
http://home.12move.dk/~noah/original.mp3
<B>Some fun with the STS5000:</B>
http://home.12move.dk/~noah/STS5000%20modified.mp3
<B>Go make some music</B>
_________________
Yours truely
Noah Laux
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Thalamus on 2001-07-21 17:47 ]</font>
I dont think you are listening to what I say:
The sts5000 can do all what you descripe...
I own my self the VP9000, so I know what I'm talking about.
Sure you can play with you material live, I just meant that RELEASING all the keys you hold, would retrigger the samples. But if you dont, you can, excatly like the VP9000, play a melody with you sample, and it will keep the tempo, but adjust the pitch (and formant). And better still, the only length restriction is the ram in your computer.
I'm sorry if my explanation was hard to understand to you, i'll try to do better next time.
I say the STS5000 can do the same as VP9000 and more, becourse you have the pulsar/scope routing system, and costum effects and so on, well I just love pulsars flexebility, but I hope that more "PRO" companies like Waves, TC & etc would realize this, and make their exelent stuff available to the creamware community.
here are a bare-bone example of the STS5000, my girlfriend singing a little tune, and me modifying for fun with the sts5000. Sure I could have done more to the formants, but alll i do here, is to take the sample,and play live with it on my keyboard...
<B>original singing:</B>
http://home.12move.dk/~noah/original.mp3
<B>Some fun with the STS5000:</B>
http://home.12move.dk/~noah/STS5000%20modified.mp3
<B>Go make some music</B>
_________________
Yours truely
Noah Laux
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Thalamus on 2001-07-21 17:47 ]</font>
Oops.. that clears things up!
Thank you for having so much patience with me. Of course.. if you own the vp9000, and you say it's better....
I think I'll drop by the CW-shop
)
..and what a treat it is!!
Didn't even have a single crash yet.
The quality of the pitching/stretching feature is really good. And even *if* the VP9000 would have anything better, well... the STS's pricetag sure makes up for it!
best regards
jw
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jw on 2001-07-23 04:50 ]</font>
Thank you for having so much patience with me. Of course.. if you own the vp9000, and you say it's better....
I think I'll drop by the CW-shop
)..and what a treat it is!!
Didn't even have a single crash yet.
The quality of the pitching/stretching feature is really good. And even *if* the VP9000 would have anything better, well... the STS's pricetag sure makes up for it!
best regards
jw
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jw on 2001-07-23 04:50 ]</font>
(sorry I don't know how to quote properly on this forum)
freddan wrote:
I only have a Pulsar I right now. Should I wait and buy STS-5000 until I have upgraded or will my Pulsar manage to handle the 5000 in a "normal" (pretty small with only 4 DSPs) project?
Freddan: based on the recommendations and descriptions in this thread I have purchased the update STS4000>STS5000 and I can assure you it is worth every penny. Everything Thalamus said is true. It is very easy to get started, especially when you have experience with STS3000 or STS4000. I just started by making a new program, new keygroup, new sample and recording a vocal line in the Sample Editor. Then the fun work can begin.
The STS5000 is a completely different league. I'm doing things with my voice now that I could never sing
I have a Pulsar 1. The STS5000 takes considerably more DSP than the STS4000 - about 75% of the total DSP. But it certainly works well in my setup. (PIII 600 Mhz, 256 Mb RAM).
The possibilities of the STS5000 open up a whole new way of thinking about music production. Very stimulating for creativity.
e-Rik
freddan wrote:
I only have a Pulsar I right now. Should I wait and buy STS-5000 until I have upgraded or will my Pulsar manage to handle the 5000 in a "normal" (pretty small with only 4 DSPs) project?
Freddan: based on the recommendations and descriptions in this thread I have purchased the update STS4000>STS5000 and I can assure you it is worth every penny. Everything Thalamus said is true. It is very easy to get started, especially when you have experience with STS3000 or STS4000. I just started by making a new program, new keygroup, new sample and recording a vocal line in the Sample Editor. Then the fun work can begin.
The STS5000 is a completely different league. I'm doing things with my voice now that I could never sing
I have a Pulsar 1. The STS5000 takes considerably more DSP than the STS4000 - about 75% of the total DSP. But it certainly works well in my setup. (PIII 600 Mhz, 256 Mb RAM).
The possibilities of the STS5000 open up a whole new way of thinking about music production. Very stimulating for creativity.
e-Rik