KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

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Spindrift
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by Spindrift »

That file is mapping for 128 semitones, so not limited to 3 octaves. In my experience SilentWay using that mapping has no problem to cover the full range accurately. Perhaps resolution is slightly lower than if scope would use the full range, but range is not limited.

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spacef
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

sorry we are not talking about the same thing. the output of the ES3 or any other audio to cv interface is necessarily limited to 3 full octaves (and a few semitones) due to the necessity to bypass dc filters (and because an audio interface only has so much "headroom")... I don't use the native soft for cv modulation, so i don't know what they have. Doesn't matter though... let's get back to the topic!
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Spindrift
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by Spindrift »

Ok, I have the ES3 and ES6, and no such limit in my system. I can send full range between daw, scope and eurorack and nowhere is it limited to 3 octaves. If the ES-3 cannot give more than 3 octaves it or the oscillator must be faulty.

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spacef
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

between a moog minitaur, a korg ms20, digital and analog eurorack oscillators, a behringer neutron, that's a damn lot of faulty oscillators.
all was made and tested with 2 different ES 3 from 2 different vendors, faulty too. call that bad luck i suppose :D
may be you can in native but you can't in scope. or may be get the sdk, it's really not difficult to make a table with your tuning and send it to adat so you could make your own "freq" converter as you were asking.
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Spindrift
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by Spindrift »

According to Expert Sleepers ES-3 has "Maximum output voltage: approximately ±10V DC"
If you have an unipolar signal and an osc that responds accurately to 1V/Oct that gives 10 octaves. So if you get a range of 3 octaves, either you are not sending the ES-3 a full scale signal, the ES-3 is broken or the osc doesn't have 1 V/Oct response.

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spacef
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

It's true the ES-3 mentions +/- 10 V but most modules V/oct inputs are + / - 5 V nowadays.
Moreover, Pitch CV is Unipolar /Positive so it is 5V (only the positive signal of a a +/- 5V module is used for Pitch CV).
Modulations like LFO are generally bipolar.

In KrOn you must add " Root note" (played by the keyboard) with 3 octaves of step sequencer (36 notes V/Oct,... 48 notes Scope DSP), so you reach more than 3 octaves ( 6 or 7) and you can also use the pitch bend up and down without reaching the limits too quickly. You get 6 octaves without glitches + pitch bend up / down. I personnally found that this range works best with all kind of stuff. More than that gives "max note" too often and it's not always pretty.
And you can always add up pitch sequencers (or pitch+val) to get beyond the 36 notes of pitch sequencers.
and KrOn generates bipolar modulations too (LFOs for example)

a very old link https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... e%20change.
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Spindrift
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by Spindrift »

Precisely, but polarity with a DC signal is only bias really. Even if oscillator would expect 5V bias and go up to 10V, you still have 10 octaves possible from ES-3. In theory you could of course control 20 octaves if there was something pointless like a bipolar +-10V oscillator.

I really appreciate helping out with getting me to understand how Kr0n handles this if it is something you feel you can divulge. At the core each step I guess Kr0n has a 32 bit value indicating the current steps pitch? And you can switch the output to be DSP or CV? Is there not a conversion happening from the sliders 32 bit value to another value if you select DSP or CV?

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spacef
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

KrOn 3 is available for download in the user area.
---> Added Devices : Moduls and Pitch 64

---> BIg change in philosophy; the presets recall everything including the type of signal ( DSP or V/Oct or Hz/V). This means that presets made with KrOn 1 or 2 may show some weirdness, which is usually solved by choosing the right type of signal (ie DSP or V / Oct) and re-saving the preset.

From now on, the main device is KrOn 3 , with DSP and V/Oct only (as Korg themselves abandonned Hz/V). Hz/V is still available in KrOn 3 "max" and MIni KrOn.

Mini KrOn 3 is also available as a BB3 device (requires a BB3 activation key) @ 29 € instead of 49 € until end of october.

Please download from your user account. As usual, let me know if there is any issue dowwnloading the update (the zip name has been changed to reflect the date of the file).



with an xite, I can easily load each of the device below, in a single project. total = 16+4+4= 24 modulator outputs + 6 T1/T2 (T1/T2 are LFOs with their own output...which I did not remove because having those extra outputs prooved useful in several projects).

Moduls and Pitch 64 should allow to "re-create" a KrOn in 96 khz setup (let me know if not, I can remove a few stuff in Pitch 64 to make it lighter).
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MIni-Kron-3.png
MIni-Kron-3.png (136.23 KiB) Viewed 496 times
KrOn3.png
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spacef
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

I tried to recreate KrOn on modulargrid website... 100 HP, 4000 euros (without the dozens of patch cables you would need) and it doesn't do DSP :-) missing a couple of envelope followers too... I guess you could get it cheaper with more behringer stuff, or simply not get it at all and save the price of an xite, lol :-D
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Peter Drake
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by Peter Drake »

That's an impressive argument for Scope, and Scope modular in general. I would think that the current trend toward modular would bring more people to Scope, but it may be rare and difficult for total newcomers to find out about it. I dabble a little in physical modular, and the few people I've run across that know about Scope understand why I just don't need much modular hardware.
On the other hand, many people like something physical to handle, and that's cool too. I'm really glad I don't have to deal with vinyl records any more, but I have no problem with others that still want to do that.
I have to admit that sometimes I look at my lightpipe/CV, fader boxes, and rotary encoder boxes and imagine some kind of generic "dumb" physical modular modules that could interface with Scope. Maybe with some blinky lights and OLED screens on a few, because it looks cool. I think Frank Hund's latest venture was almost, but not quite this thing I imagine. Also, those of us that have been Scopers for a long time remember what happened last time with a change of emphasis toward hardware devices.
I probably think about this too much, but every time I visit a modular store or site I mostly find myself thinking "I already have that in Scope". For someone new to Scope, I think the barriers to entry are a challenge. The entry-level is pretty old hardware that takes old-fashioned computer hardware to run. Xite is incredibly inexpensive for its capabilities, but still a serious expenditure for something you can't really see demonstrated in a store or try out somehow.
Just my thoughts. Again, seeing how much a Kron would be in hardware is a real attention-getter. Also, I can run several Kron's in a project if I want to at no extra expense. Why would I want to? What might that do? Going to project window to find out.

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spacef
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

:-) If I had the idea and skills to release a KrOn device in the early 2000, and promote it with videos etc I am pretty sure it would have been a different story.

But there was no ADAT to CV converter bacck in the days - the ADAT to CV from Expert Sleeper indeed come from an idea suggested by a Scope User to Expert Sleepers - without Scope, there would not have been any ADAT to CV converter. That's for a start :-)

Even myself was not attracted to analog. I always had dx synths and samplers and analog was something complicated and with no midi and that did cheezy sounds on outdated records (that's what you say when you don't have the budget, lol). Well, I did have a Juno alpha+PG300 in the 90's and loved it... but I wonder if there was any analog released around 2000, or if it was only collectors vintage synths. Eurorack was for phony people who looked more like electronician that musicians, or for that famous Hans ZImmer Picture with his giant modular. Super expensive stuff too in those days.

There was no behringer clones, no cheap eurorack modules. Nowadays, the synth crowd is still attracted to expensive hardware and adepts of the "dawlesss jamming" religion. I do beleive a device like KrOn is a great addition to Scope but there are native ccompetitors. KrOn brings the scope modulators to CV, and this is also something difficult to appreciate by someone who already have native software (like "i already have an lfo modulator, why would i need another one").

The vstis were not as evolved as today, and Scope was a great alternative to expensive gear and could deal with more synths/effects that the avergae computer could with VSTis, with no latency (in the days of soundblaster, latency was a big thing in favor of scope). Nowadays, people do not understand the DSP plateforms (including UAD) because they think they can do the same wth freeware. It is difficult to sell quality when the crowd is ignorant of the technical facts that are not apparent.It is difficult to appreciate the difference between vstis, dsp, analog, when you have nothing to compare at home. The young would not invest such a budget, so it is for "grown-ups" and "professionals" or passionate people like we still are.

Also, there was no easy way to make videos / screen camera captures: iphone did not exist (was released in 2006/2007) no smartphone could film anything properly (there was no "smartphone) and you would need some real camera gear (expensive) - screen cam capture sofware would have to deal with Pentium 2 with x86 processor and mechanical drives. Then you would upload it to your slow website and hope that users have adsl, because there was no youtube back in the days (or was there?).... no facebook to promote it... The world was different and internet was slow. It is still process hungry nowadays eventhough much more manageable.

So it is more of a ensemble of conditions that were what they were, and which slowly evolved and changed the landscape, and this indirectly allowed scope to do different things and become more powerful.

I am pretty sure that, if more videos existed to show it off, it would be appealling to many, but the price is unaffordable for a lot of musicians. "Dad I Want an XIte for christmas" wouild not work, I think :-)

But when I post the videos on French forums, the old scopers who sold their scope become nostalgic and begin to wonder if they should get one back in their studio. So it is still appealing soundwise, but then there is either xite or a second hand scope which is difficult because PCI slots are not very common anymore. But it is still appealing when you show off what it can do.
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Spindrift
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by Spindrift »

I also lost interest in having a lot of hardware thanks to Scope. I always preferred analouge filters, but the difference was just too small to make it worth the cumbersome workflow of having a hardware setup with mixers etc.
Small difference in sound is not worth a big downgrade in workflow for me, and Scope combined with VST is really more than enough to make good tracks.

But my plan already when I got my first scope system 99, and realized I no longer needed synths and mixer, was to get a small modular system to complement with some analouge sound. Now I finally have an ES-3 and ES-6 and a small rack, and can route freely (apart from when it comes to pitch) between Eurorack, Scope and Grid in Bitwig.

For most part I could do with only Grid and Eurorack for sure, but there are a couple of reasons I would say a Scope system still remains one of the best investments available in modular synthesis:

With Eurorack you have of course no save and recall, which is extremely unproductive. So IMO having a digital system is far superior in this regard. Scope is unique in providing latency free integration with very deep capabilities, so is unbeatable as a foundation where you can path in modules that give analouge color or hands on control as needed.
And it is not limited to emulating a physical rack like VCV, so lends itself better to doing very complex patches.

Reactor and Grid takes advantage of being software, and can integrate with Eurorack, but apart from latency issue the sound is disappointing compared to Scope. Grid has really great workflow though.

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spacef
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by spacef »

scope is freedom and flexibility. whatever is my setup (gear or workflow/projects) scope can be adapted.

--------

On the KrOn front, I will revert back to the original way for presets, ie, they don't recall the type of signal because any preset should be loadable to use in the current project. We loose this function by adding the signal types to presets, and I find it suddenly less powerful. I thought it was a good idea but it is not the best way, so we go back to what I think is best.
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yayajohn
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Re: KrOn - CV/DSP modulator

Post by yayajohn »

Medhi: I finally got around to trying one of the new devices out. Great stuff indeed!
Only tried the mini so far, which occupied the rest of the night.
The rest to come. :)

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