MIDI Out

[dawman]

Anyone ever notice that even when the XITE-1 hasn't loaded a project, that the hardware MIDI outs are active...
I screwed up and started playing w/o the project loaded and noticed my SE-1x which is connected to the MIDI Out (hardware) was switching presets.
Pretty cool...

[Bud Weiser]

Anyone ever notice that even when the XITE-1 hasn't loaded a project, that the hardware MIDI outs are active...
I screwed up and started playing w/o the project loaded and noticed my SE-1x which is connected to the MIDI Out (hardware) was switching presets.
Pretty cool...

No, never tried that.
You mean, w/ XITE and computer powered up but NO project loaded incl. hardware MIDI source and destination, XITE MIDI In is echoed to XITE hardware MIDI Out,- or is it MIDI Thru ? Or both ???

IF both,- that could be a hardware bug like w/ the old Roland MKS80 echoing incoming MIDI to MIDI Out always, creating a MIDI loop when using bankmangers/editors, then resulting in corrupted sysex files.
MIDI ECHO is a feature and should be on/off switchable on demand, which in case of SCOPE/XITE, that would require an already loaded project,- at least because, if not switchable, MIDI filters were the workaround.

Bud

[dawman]

Well I don't really know if it's Thru Or Out, but it sends LSB/MSB and PrgmChng, FilterFreq CC Sweeps, etc.
I was surprised.
I suppose on start up the Sequencer MIDI Destination is merged with it.
On occasion I was getting stuck MIDI notes, and all day today I tried my hardest to get stuck MIDI notes with Hardware MIDI Destination disconnected, and realize this dual MIDI stream was the problem.
This only took 3 years but it's all good....

[Bud Weiser]

Well I don't really know if it's Thru Or Out, ...

It´s important to know,- if it happens w/ gear connected to MIDI In, MIDI Out and/or MIDI Thru,- please double check.

In your former post you said "hardware MIDI connections ACTIVE",- right ?

Now, when you have connected an ext. MIDI device´s MIDI Out to XITE-1 MIDI In and there´s another external MIDI device connected to XITE-1 MIDI Thru AND a next one to XITE-1 MIDI Out,- all w/XITE-1 powered up, connected to computer, a SCOPE project loaded but NOT containing any hardware MIDI I/O device,- any connectivity between XITE-1 MIDI In and MIDI Out should be impossible,- right ?
If NOT,- that´s weird !

But, the connectivity between XITE-1 MIDI In and MIDI Thru is in hardware and done w/ opto couplers, me thinks.
Like w/ any other MIDI module powered up,- MIDI In is always connected to MIDI Thru and that would be normal.

I suppose on start up the Sequencer MIDI Destination is merged with it.

Is merged with what ?

Me, using SCOPE 5.1 on XITE-1 and WinXP SP3 32Bit,- I have to make connections in routing window between hardware MIDI I/O (XITE MIDI src & dest) and sequencer MIDI I/O devices (seq MIDI src & dest) before these work.

But you use SCOPE 5.1 64Bit AFAIK,- right ?

On occasion I was getting stuck MIDI notes, and all day today I tried my hardest to get stuck MIDI notes with Hardware MIDI Destination disconnected, and realize this dual MIDI stream was the problem.
This only took 3 years but it's all good....

Up to now, I don´t understand from WHERE the misterious "dual MIDI stream" came and to where and what it is/was transmitted.
What routing scenario did you have w/ your masterkeyboard (Casio ?), Solaris and SE-1X and which device was affected by occasional stuck notes issue ?
Which startup project was active at that time w/ SCOPE and XITE-1 up and running,- screenshot available ?

Bud

[dawman]

OMG, now I forced to reveal to the world I am dyslexic, all of these Out to Ins in hardware were OK, but the PC stuff reverses that and I get confused.
I shall try and use some screenshots, while I recover. I usually create some stuff on Channel 11 of a mixer as I can easily deal with the 2 x 1's...Then I can unconfuse myself.
Give me 10 minutes to re create my set up using screenshots and low quality Phone jpegs.

[dawman]

OK here's the deal.
Before the XITE-1 project is even loaded, my SE-1X was recieving note on/off and MSB/LSB, PrgmChng data from the XITE-1 MIDI Out, hardware that is.
Then I load the project and the XITE-1 MIDI Out gets shut down.

Then I go to the project window, and disconnect the XITE-1 MIDI Destination module and I get no sound, no MIDI data transfers either.
It's a peculiar oddity I never noticed. But on my 88 note controller prior to the project being loaded, I can see the SE-1X reciveing note on/off, PrgmChng, and MCB/LSB data.
Once the project is loaded, the XITE-1 MIDI Out is now what is sending data to the SE-1X. So the virtual MIDI module has now taken over and is sending the data from the hardware MIDI out, so this isn't a dual stream actually, but a switcher type of action.

I disconnected the XITE-1 MIDI Destination module and the SE-1X recieves nadda, nothing.
Very unique scenario I never noticed before.

This tells me that during a shutdown/reboot, if I ran extra outputs from the Analog out of Solaris, I could switch from Bank 8 where my programs are stored using the Toslink to AES/EBU connection on the XITE-1, and go to an exact Duplicate of that Bank, only Bank 7 would have the Analog outs instead of the digital, and my 88 note controller could still control the SE-1X via the XITE-1s hardware MIDI out.

I would have to use the Barbettas and only change Banks on the Solaris, and shove the Analog out of the SE-1X "y'd" analog cable all the way into the Barbettas, as they have a Mixer/PA interface in the rear where Hardware effects loops, and multipole I/Os reside.
This is pretty good to know, but Scope has never crashed on me...ever. Years of 6 nights a week and not once have the cards, or the XITE-1 ever crashed. It was one of the reasons I stayed with Scope once I had the choice of buying a Receptor and hardware, or the XBox. I am glad I stayed the course.
I hope I made sense, as my head is still spinning from the talk of multiple I/Os from hardware to multple I/Os of software, which are reversed for the sake of virtual routing......Sheeez...I need a Jager.

[dawman]

Sorry about the confusion of which hardware out I was using. I never use Thru.
At NAMM I was suppose to set up on another controller I was unaccustomed to, and use my SE-1X, and as soon as GaryB started talking about Thru to this and that my head started spinning so I decided to just shut up and play. It sucked, but cowering away was no option.
I was using a crappy Synth Brass from a synth in Scope from the Akai 88 noter, and just ran with that.
My Bassist was quacking for effects like a girl singer and tormented GaryB even further, so I was just wanting to hurry up and play, then cower off into the crowd afterwards.

At the end of the day, I am really a Simpleton, lost on any other app than Kontakt and Scope.
You should see me go into convulsions after reading Threads at the Reaper forum when they start talking about a tracks I/Os and various I/O options. My head spins right off of my shoulders.

Hope this helps explain what I discovered.

[Bud Weiser]

OK here's the deal.

Before the XITE-1 project is even loaded, my SE-1X was recieving note on/off and MSB/LSB, PrgmChng data from the XITE-1 MIDI Out, hardware that is.

O.k.,- let´s go step by step:

SE-1X MIDI-In is connected to XITE-1 MIDI-Out (which is XITE-1 MIDI destination).

Then I load the project and the XITE-1 MIDI Out gets shut down.

Normally that means,- there isn´t the XITE-1 MIDI destination device loaded in that project or,- it is loaded into that project but it´s not wired to any MIDI source.
In both cases,- no MIDI info at XITE-1´s MIDI-Out.

Then I go to the project window, and disconnect the XITE-1 MIDI Destination module and I get no sound, no MIDI data transfers either.

Isn´t that normal ?
1.)
that line verifies there is the XITE MIDI destination loaded into that project because otherwise you´d not be able to disconnect it.
2.)
Probably because of a up to now unknown sequential order of devices loading while the project loads and w/ outboard hardware already connected (SE1-X /XITE-1 MIDI-Out),- it might be, XITE-MIDI destination was already active before the project loading procedure was finished completely and there was a MIDI info stream being transmitted to SE-1X until something broke when the project loading procedure was finished,- maybe the MIDI line running from (?) wherever to XITE MIDI destination (XITE-1 MIDI-Out),- so any transmission of MIDI info stopped.

It's a peculiar oddity I never noticed.

Well, that´s hard to find out and could be a bug which happens occasionally only,- but also would have to be reproduced repeatedly to confirm it´s a bug.
To me,- it appears to be a software thingy.

But on my 88 note controller prior to the project being loaded, I can see the SE-1X reciveing note on/off, PrgmChng, and MCB/LSB data.

Now we come to the point where it´s hard to follow.
IMO what you see on your 88 note controller is what it transmitts,- not what SE1-X receives.

Assuming your 88-note controller´s MIDI-Out is connected to XITE MIDI-In (XITE MIDI source in the project) and SE1-X is conncted to XITE MIDI-Out (XITE IDI destination in the project),- how comes you have any visual info on your 88-note controller about SE1-X receiving MIDI info ?
Where do you see that,- in the display of the 88-note controller ?
That said,- it would be only possible when your controller supports such a feature and when SE1-X supports that too by reporting received MIDI Info via it´s MIDI-Out back to the device connected to it´s MIDI-In.
(think of it like a plugin reports parameter status to the Behringer BCR2000 in a bi-directional MIDI setup).

You use a Casio controller and I doubt it supports that,- in fact, I don´t know any keyboard MIDI controller supporting this, except the Panorama P4 and P6 specially designed for Reason,- and I also doubt SE1-X does.

But (!!!) - IF the SE-1X MIDI-Out is connected to somewhere MIDI-IN in that hardware MIDI setup w/ several MIDI connections made in the SCOPE project,- it´s imaginable you had a MIDI loop which stopped MIDI transmission.

Once the project is loaded, the XITE-1 MIDI Out is now what is sending data to the SE-1X. So the virtual MIDI module has now taken over and is sending the data from the hardware MIDI out, so this isn't a dual stream actually, but a switcher type of action.

Well, that indicates you probably had a MIDI loop resulting in a MIDI buffer overflow somewhere, which stops MIDI transmission and looks like a switcher type action for a period of time.
When you disconnected the XITE MIDI destination as described above, you probably killed the MIDI loop, resulting in normal operation later.

I disconnected the XITE-1 MIDI Destination module and the SE-1X recieves nadda, nothing.
Very unique scenario I never noticed before.

See above.

This tells me that during a shutdown/reboot, if I ran extra outputs from the Analog out of Solaris, I could switch from Bank 8 where my programs are stored using the Toslink to AES/EBU connection on the XITE-1, and go to an exact Duplicate of that Bank, only Bank 7 would have the Analog outs instead of the digital, and my 88 note controller could still control the SE-1X via the XITE-1s hardware MIDI out.

I would have to use the Barbettas and only change Banks on the Solaris, and shove the Analog out of the SE-1X "y'd" analog cable all the way into the Barbettas, as they have a Mixer/PA interface in the rear where Hardware effects loops, and multipole I/Os reside.
This is pretty good to know, but Scope has never crashed on me...ever. Years of 6 nights a week and not once have the cards, or the XITE-1 ever crashed. It was one of the reasons I stayed with Scope once I had the choice of buying a Receptor and hardware, or the XBox. I am glad I stayed the course.

Ehmmm,- now this is way too much off topic because the 1st target was to find out the MIDI issue in your hardware setup and SCOPE project.
Assuming you loaded a project you use frequently and in a never modified state and the project as well as the hardware setup worked before as it should and always,- you might have had just only a random occuring error.

I´d think of it in depth only when you´re able to reproduce the issue for several times.
From the very beginning,- I thought of a MIDI loop error but held back commenting on that, not knowing your MIDI hardware wireing and how the MIDI wireing in THAT project looks like.

In fact, I´d double check for any MIDI loops in SCOPE project when the issue comes back.
You use a lot of small MIDI devices in your projects like mergers, re-channelizing and such and if one of these little toys craps out in the project for a period of time (eventually during the procedure loading a/the project), there is a chance all comes from there.
But there´s also VST stuff involved in your setup,- so that might also causing a (non constant) MIDI loop somewhere while all is loading.

Sheeez...I need a Jager.

Me too,- NOW !

Bud

[dante]

Heres my test results using my MIDI activity LED (TATTLETAIL)

1) XITE-1D Powered ON with Scope NOT loaded - MIDI OUT => TATTLETAIL glows RED
2) XITE-1D Powered ON with Scope loaded but project empty - MIDI OUT => TATTLETAIL shows nothing
3) XITE-1D Powered ON with Scope loaded and hardware MIDI IN connected to hardware MIDI OUT => TATTLETAIL shows activity ONLY when data present on XITE-1 MIDI IN (Behringer BCR2000 knob twisted).

None of the above surprises me at all - except case 1) above. So I connected Scope XITE-1 MIDI OUT to SCOPE PCI MIDI IN, and put a MIDI monitor on the PCI MIDI IN, and it showed nothing when Scope XITE not loaded and I twisted a BCR knob.

[Bud Weiser]

Heres my test results using my MIDI activity LED (TATTLETAIL)

1) XITE-1D Powered ON with Scope NOT loaded - MIDI OUT => TATTLETAIL glows RED

That indicates there´s electricity active at MIDI Out when XITE is powered ON.

But Jimmy said: "but it sends LSB/MSB and PrgmChng, FilterFreq CC Sweeps, etc"

None of the above surprises me at all - except case 1) above. So I connected Scope XITE-1 MIDI OUT to SCOPE PCI MIDI IN, and put a MIDI monitor on the PCI MIDI IN, and it showed nothing when Scope XITE not loaded and I twisted a BCR knob.

That´s what I expected,- so when Jimmy has seen dedicated MIDI data (like mentioned above) being transmitted w/ XITE-1 powered up but project not been loaded or while Scope performs project loading sequence but the procedure not being finished,- that data must have come from elsewhere in his hardware MIDI controller(s) and MIDI slave setup.

I´ve never seen that because I 1st power up XITE always, then load project and wait until it´s been loaded completely, then power up MIDI controllers.
It seems, he did/does the opposite,- MIDI controller (88 note keyboard) and MIDI slave (SE1X) already powered up, then loading project.
IIRC, there´s the/a Behringer BCR or BCF in the ballpark too in Jimmy´s rig.

Bud

[dawman]

I shall try and clarify a little more.
The XITE-1 is basically a MIDI Patch Bay when it's on but no Project or Scope App has been loaded yet.
Then when you load a p[roject MIDI Hardware Out is closed until project is loaded, where the XITE-1 MIDI Destination then assume the role of the hardware MIDI Out.

I hope that explains how the XBox works like a hardware patch bay it is on, w/o the Application running.....

Ankyu

[dante]

Havent seen that. I get nothing (zilcho) passed from XITE-1D IN to OUT until a Project is loaded with MIDI patched.

Maybe its functionality revision patched out of units manufactured after first batch.

I havent tested the XITE-1D THRU, though I would expect it to behave as you describe (since theres no THRU device to drop into a Scope project it must be a hardware THRU only). But not the OUT. The OUT should only ever be active when made so by a project.

[Bud Weiser]

I shall try and clarify a little more.
The XITE-1 is basically a MIDI Patch Bay when it's on but no Project or Scope App has been loaded yet.

Oops,- that, for the time being, indicates XITE MIDI-In is echoed to MIDI-Out as long there isn´t any project up and running and hardwired to MIDI Thru (using opto couplers) always.

Then when you load a project MIDI Hardware Out is closed until project is loaded, where the XITE-1 MIDI Destination then assume the role of the hardware MIDI Out.

O.k. ...

I hope that explains how the XBox works like a hardware patch bay it is on, w/o the Application running.....

Ankyu

No, just because "MIDI Echo" is a software functionality and normally not in hardware (in opposite to MIDI Thru).

In a early post here, I was talking about the Roland MKS80 hardware bug by design flaw which showed the same issue, but constantly,- just because there weren´t any projects to load at all,- so when it was powered up, it was there until it was switched off.

In fact, if this is how your XITE-1 behaves, it´s worth a question to S|C developers if that´s intentional or not.
OTOH, it´s imaginable XITE at power up loads a hidden little firmware program which doesn´t need the computer and SCOPE environment to make sure all the hardware connections work.
That could work w/ the new Sharcs because these have RAM too.

When I have the time, I´ll try w/ my XITE-1, but all my MIDI gear is wired to REAL MIDI patchbays,- incl. XITE-1.

Bud

[dante]

My bet is yours will be like mine, Bud, being a later manufacture.

Although you did say your's was sitting in shop for some time...so who knows.

[niceboy]

Anyone ever notice that even when the XITE-1 hasn't loaded a project, that the hardware MIDI outs are active...
I screwed up and started playing w/o the project loaded and noticed my SE-1x which is connected to the MIDI Out (hardware) was switching presets.
Pretty cool...

It might be like our Oscilloscop , its actually sending electrical signals through turned off gear.
Isn't that what Midi is about .
I mean its not depending on sound , so whats the issue.
Bear

[Bud Weiser]

so whats the issue.
Bear

When XITE acts like a MIDI patchbay when powered up, w/ external gear connected (to MIDI-In and -Out) which is powered up too,- and streams incoming MIDI data to MIDI-Out even there´s no project loaded containing MIDI connections (XITE MIDI Source) to (XITE MIDI Destination) in SCOPE environment, there would be ...

MIDI FEEDBACK in case you have a bi-directional MIDI connection w/ the same device,- p.ex. a MIDI sequencer w/ it´s MIDI Thru parameter set to ON.

MIDI hardware normally just only copies MIDI data from MIDI-In to MIDI-Thru,- not MIDI-Out.
If it copies MIDI data form MIDI-In to MIDI-Out,- we call that MIDI-ECHO which is a software feature in some hardware MIDI gear but not active by only powering up a unit (it could be a permanently storable global user setting though).

In some cases it makes sense to activate MIDI-ECHO, p.ex. when you want to control several identical MIDI devices´ parameters by only the 1st device in the chain or a (SysEx) software application running on a computer.
You can also control/play 2 different devices, 1 connected to MIDI-Out and the other to MIDI-Thru on 2 different MIDI channels and by the same controller that way,- but that should be user selectable.

In fact, it IS user selectable in SCOPE by making MIDI connections WHEN the project window is up and running,- but if it´s not, MIDI connectivity between MIDI-In and MIDI-Out should not exist.

If that is an issue or an "advantage" for some users doesn´t matter,- it´s a general thing w/ MIDI.

Bud

[dante]

In fact, it IS user selectable in SCOPE by making MIDI connections WHEN the project window is up and running,- but if it´s not, MIDI connectivity between MIDI-In and MIDI-Out should not exist.

If that is an issue or an "advantage" for some users doesn´t matter,- it´s a general thing w/ MIDI.

Bud

Yep, otherwise there would be no reason to have MIDI THRU at all if MIDI OUT doing the same job

Did you test what yours is doing Bud ?

[Bud Weiser]

Yep, otherwise there would be no reason to have MIDI THRU at all if MIDI OUT doing the same job

I think "MIDI-Thru" is a leftover from the times w/ no MIDI matrix switch boxes existing,- I never use MIDI-Thru because it adds latency.
MIDI Thru was made for daisy chaining and in real world it´s acceptable connecting one additional device to MIDI Thru,- not more.

Meanwhile, there are many keyboard controllers out there offering the old standard MIDI trio connectors, but offering also a hardware switch making MIDI Thru a MIDI Out, my Kurz PC361 p.ex.

Did you test what yours is doing Bud ?

Not yet.
I have to find the box where I stashed all my little MIDI accessories 1st,- most I don´t use in my rig anymore.
There must be the Midisolutions mergers.
I´ll do the electrical test, nothing being powered up except XITE and connect the merger.
I´ll also connect XITE MIDI-Out to Kurz PC361 MIDI In and use the MIDI monitor, then see if there´s also data transmitted.
Next will be powering up the computer, launch SCOPE and see what happens.
Next,- load a default project w/ hardware audio/MIDI devices loaded and watch ...

I´ll repeat steps #3 and #4 w/ Kurz PC3 controller powered up already before XITE will be powered up and w/ bi-directional MIDI connections from/to PC361,- prewired.
That would be something compared to Jimmy´s rig.
PC361 is multitimbral and can act as controller and MIDI module simultaneously w/ MIDI local off.

That should clarify everything,- I hope.

Needs some extra time,- I have a busy month.

Bud