Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

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Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by Spielraum »

revealing A<>B comparison
thx for this cool and wounderful presentation!
-----------------------------------------------

Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QJW4JwHSBo
~
German Salazar

Moog Minimoog vs Creamware minimax ASB and plugiator
Source video comparison: Genuine Soundware and Instruments
~
Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms).PNG
Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms).PNG (532.42 KiB) Viewed 2476 times
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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by Bud Weiser »

Spielraum wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:24 pm
revealing A<>B comparison
thx for this cool and wounderful presentation!
-----------------------------------------------

Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QJW4JwHSBo
~
German Salazar

Moog Minimoog vs Creamware minimax ASB and plugiator
Source video comparison: Genuine Soundware and Instruments
~
Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph &amp; waveforms).PNG
Minimax is a great Minimoog D emulation.
I owned 3 original (and modded) Minimoog D and still own one which actually is in service.

But also w/ the hardware,- it sounds different when playing the Mini via MIDI or via it´s Pratt-Read keyboard.
It´s similar to a Hammond tonewheel organ´s key contacts which are part of the sound.
The Minimog D´s keycontact springs don´t only close/open.
They smear over the busbars and it´s different for every single key since the alignment isn´t 100% perfect.
besides audio artefacts, one of the results is slightly different trigger point of VCF- and VCA- ENV per key.
None of the software emulations mimiks this.

The other difference is when using the audio loopback (audio-out back into pre-filter ext. input).
In fact, this behaves different in every single vintage MInimoog D already,- and what Minimax does in this department is sonically worlds apart from what my Minimoogs did.

Then, Minimax has a graphic bug in regards of it´s octave/footage switch.
Typing from my head I think it was in OSC #1 ... maybe #2 (?) ...
It annoys me all the time because it looks different than it sounds.

And,- when dialing in some of the "jan-hammerish" single OSC, clicky-percussive nasal flanged sounds,- the output level becomes very low and there´s no compensation for in Minimax.
It´s because when you want that clicky sound, normally produced by the keyboard contacts in conjunction w/ VCA ENV Atack/Release and Sustain settings, you´d have to set VCA sustain level below 6 or even lower and then don´t have any gain boost option when master volume is already 100%.

I dunno how it is w/ ASB/Klangbox which you run into an amp which itself is a gain boost option then,.- but in SCOPE it is like described above.

In SCOPE it helped running into an amp sim though,- but then it´s often crap to have Minimax´ FX before amp, especialy the DLY,- but sometimes also Cho or FL.

:)

Bud

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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by Spielraum »

Bud Weiser wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:26 am
Then, Minimax has a graphic bug in regards of it´s octave/footage switch.
Typing from my head I think it was in OSC #1 ... maybe #2 (?) ...
It annoys me all the time because it looks different than it sounds.
sdk GO, have you tried modified animation?
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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by Bud Weiser »

Spielraum wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:48 am
Bud Weiser wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:26 am
Then, Minimax has a graphic bug in regards of it´s octave/footage switch.
Typing from my head I think it was in OSC #1 ... maybe #2 (?) ...
It annoys me all the time because it looks different than it sounds.
sdk GO, have you tried modified animation?
Well, I don´t own an SDK at all ...
Always hoped for someone being able to fix it,- S|C at least.
Seems some devices are locked and original designers disappeared.
But maybe there´s a way for the future, who knows ...

:)

Bud

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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by Spielraum »

sorry, no grafic bug found in minimax v5+v7
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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by Bud Weiser »

Spielraum wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:34 pm
sorry, no grafic bug found in minimax v5+v7
I hope for installing SCOPE v7 this weekend and optional as also 3rd party and free devices during upcoming week.
The aquired masterclock is on the way to my home now, but Corona might delay arrival.
It will be my 1st 64Bit SCOPE rig and once up I´ll report back.

I had the bug on WinXP SP3 in SCOPE 5.1 and formerly in SCOPE 4.0/4.5 w/ WinXP as well.
I´d appreciate when it´s gone now !
Typing from my head it was when switching footage (8' > 4' or 16' > 8') it needed less than 1mm to change sound, but it looked like you never moved the pointer-switch.
It was on only 1 of the OSCs though.
It was just only irritating to me when I looked at the screen and it sounded different than it looked.
Just only cosmetics, but a bug.

Something I´d like to have w/ Minimax as also other SCOPE synths is a pre internal-FX effects-insert (mono and stereo selectable) so user can insert FX before flanger/chorus and delay.

:)

Bud

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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by Spielraum »

Bud Weiser wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:30 am
Something I´d like to have w/ Minimax as also other SCOPE synths is a pre internal-FX effects-insert (mono and stereo selectable) so user can insert FX before flanger/chorus and delay.
your request will be heard, i'm sure ... :wink:
if i look at the cool zarg devices, then i think in a fundamentally flexible way!

but, i also think it's great that effecte on/off are not saved in preset.
i often design with 2 instances (L/R) dry, with slightly changed presets, the real "stereo" sum is much more lively than the "pseudo" mono2stereo FX sum, often i don't need any room effects in the mix, but if, then it gets really fat. I like to use with minimal arrangements.
Ps .: another reason why there are lots of presets in the styledriver libraries :P
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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by Bud Weiser »

Spielraum wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:08 am

your request will be heard, i'm sure ... :wink:
if i look at the cool zarg devices, then i think in a fundamentally flexible way!

but, i also think it's great that effecte on/off are not saved in preset.
i often design with 2 instances (L/R) dry, with slightly changed presets, the real "stereo" sum is much more lively than the "pseudo" mono2stereo FX sum, often i don't need any room effects in the mix, but if, then it gets really fat. I like to use with minimal arrangements.
Ps .: another reason why there are lots of presets in the styledriver libraries :P
Well, because I got issues w/ ym SCOPE v7 XITE-1 installation, I cannot doublecheck for the OSC footage switch bug for the time being,- sorry.
I also hate I´m now unable checking out Prodyssey CV and all the latest goodies we lately got,- Styledriver, Loren´s and Dawman´s device/mdl collections.

Playing Minimax in my keyboard rig is great because it has presets in opposite to my original Minimoog D instrument.
FX are welcome in a keyboard rig and I´d like to pre-chorus/flanger insert OD, Dist, wah-wah and amp-/spkr-sim pre-delay.
For recording, I´d switch FX off like it is w/ the real deal.

:)

Bud

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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by enumeratus »

Bud Weiser wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:29 am
...

Well, because I got issues w/ ym SCOPE v7 XITE-1 installation, I cannot doublecheck for the OSC footage switch bug for the time being,- sorry.
I also hate I´m now unable checking out Prodyssey CV and all the latest goodies we lately got,- Styledriver, Loren´s and Dawman´s device/mdl collections.

Playing Minimax in my keyboard rig is great because it has presets in opposite to my original Minimoog D instrument.
FX are welcome in a keyboard rig and I´d like to pre-chorus/flanger insert OD, Dist, wah-wah and amp-/spkr-sim pre-delay.
For recording, I´d switch FX off like it is w/ the real deal.

:)

Bud
I want to say Hi first - I have not been here for a while.
The topic got me interested.
You really seem to like the Minimax.
Talking about improvements:
There is another strange thing in the Minimoog VCA - if you play notes very fast on a real Minimoog D, you seem to get a changing 'Attack' phase.
What would you say - is this worth modeling e.g. for the Minimax in your opinion, apart from the key klick?

- Klaus

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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by Bud Weiser »

enumeratus wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:04 am

... Minimax.
Talking about improvements:
There is another strange thing in the Minimoog VCA - if you play notes very fast on a real Minimoog D, you seem to get a changing 'Attack' phase.
What would you say - is this worth modeling e.g. for the Minimax in your opinion, apart from the key klick?

- Klaus
Well, I´d say,- everything possible to come more close to the hardware is worth modelling,- in THEORY.
At the end of the day and in digital domain, there will always be the balancing act between time and effort as well as DSP/CPU ressources and usefullness,- in that case the audible effect.

I remember I bought handcrafted early PPG 1002 and 1020 monophonic analogue synths,- and my 1st Minimoog D,- all @ Wolfgang Palm´s "Keyboard Fachgeschäft" in Hamburg/germany.
The panel layouts were simple and optimized for live usage, which at that time was more important than basic sound.

I tell ya, the early PPG 1020 was more accurate because it already had some kind of early digital controlled OSCs.
Much better from technical standpoint ...

Minimoog D introduced "wombling" (some time it needed stabilizing pitch after a key was hit), these artefacts coming from keyboard mechanism, slight drop in pitch when releasing a key and more drop in pitch when release time was long(er) etc.,- but it WAS the sound pleasing the ears, what all pros used and what you heard on all the countless records,- not only at that time but also earlier and later.
It´s iconic even imperfect,- and architecture is simple.

I can play fast and do lots of pitchbend, use CV pedals and s##t,- but never wrapped my head around changing attack phase of the VCA when playing fast runs.
To me, it seems to be more recognizable when analyzing electronics and/or compare.
I don´t do that, I´m a player ...
But yeah,- when it´s a significant part of the sound, it might be worth modelling,- maybe by using velocity and release velocity controllers changing phase of VCA randomly.
Thinking about it I wonder how the algorithm decides between "fast and slow(er)" playing though.
And did this changes in attack phase happen always,- which every thinkable setting of VCA envelope p.ex. ?

And,- as always w/ software,- you might come very close to the sound (they sounded all slightly different anyway) but will never get the haptics.

:)

Bud

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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by Bud Weiser »

Spielraum wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:34 pm
sorry, no grafic bug found in minimax v5+v7
It seems to be gone here too, at least w/ Minimax v7 which I tried yesterday nite and was surprised.
Will check the v5 version too.
Maybe it happened only on all of my WinXP machines,- Intel P4 socket 478 w/ SCOPE 4.0 up to SCOPE 5.1 32Bit on my Intel Pentium dual core, socket 775, machine.

:)

Bud

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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by dante »

What I would like to know is if MiniMax is better than the UAD minimoog. Given UA have done theirs in Native we can be pretty much assured that for the foreseeable future that our Scope Classic synths will be the only Classic soft synth incarnations done in DSP so would be kinda good to know they cane the native ones :

Examples :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YPR8TwQoaA

Shootout w/ Arturia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq3Zz-y6pbc

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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by Bud Weiser »

dante wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:15 am
What I would like to know is if MiniMax is better than the UAD minimoog. Given UA have done theirs in Native we can be pretty much assured that for the foreseeable future that our Scope Classic synths will be the only Classic soft synth incarnations done in DSP so would be kinda good to know they cane the native ones :

https://youtu.be/sLx_x5Fuzp4
Nice docu, thx for sharing.

Well, meanwhile we see some very good native VIs,- no question.
But I prefer ´em running on DSPs because I don´t have to think about latency that much.
Most users ignore "latency", being compared to a given distance of the ear to the speakers,- comes in addition to that real world ear/speaker distance.
So, when my distance to speakers already makes 3ms,- a 256 samples ASIO buffer of native system makes additional 6ms,- while the roundtip latency is even higher.
That doesn´t matter much for DAW work, but for playing an instrument, it makes a big difference.
When I go w/ a MIDI controller keyboard into the MIDI-In of XITE-1 and run Minimax,- the latency is negligible and it plays like a hardware instrument.
That´s the most important fact for me,- and there´s nobody out there (and will never be !) who can tell what the closest e Minimoog emulation is because every Minimoog D sounded slightly different,- like electromagnetic Hammond organs did and do.

Now I owned 3 Minimoog D and actualy own 1.
Do I think about if this is the best Minimoog out there or not ?
No,- I don´t.
The feel of the real deal is what makes the experience,- not only the sound.
And when you play a VI by using any MIDI controller keyboard,- it´s NEVER the same experience or result, just only because it´s never the whole package.
That also rules for many other instruments.
You´ll get the sound from emulations,- more or less close and sometimes very close,- but you´ll always play different on the MIDI controller keyboard vs. the real instrument.
You adapt to imperfections of the real and continuously ageing instrument,- the old keyboard mechanism, pitchwheel w/ signficantly different behaviour and inaccurate range, connect CV pedals w/ wide travel and audio taper pots (instead of linear ones typically used in expression pedals)) and so on.
You play and grab a pot to re-ajust sound while playing,- do that w/ a mouse.
And when you programmed a MIDI controller to make changes,- it doesn´t look like the front panel of the Mini or any other real synth.
And yes, I really hate preparing MIDI controllers to do so,- it´s wasted time for me.

So, when playing Minimax, I use the preset memory, select a patch and play.
With the real deal, I turn knobs, use pedals and bring it to life that way BECAUSE it doesn´t offer preset memory.

But the advantage of Minimax is not only the very low latency when running SCOPE standalone,- in addition you can make it polyphonic, it has FX built in,- and I already mentioned above,- it has presets like the Minimoog Voyager p.ex..

I don´t think the Minimoog Voyager sounds better than Minimax does.

:)

Bud

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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by dante »

yes real is best - but in the virtual realm - do you think Minimax sound better than these UA examples :

Examples :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YPR8TwQoaA

or is it latency still the main advantage DSP have over native ?

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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by Bud Weiser »

dante wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:51 pm
yes real is best - but in the virtual realm - do you think Minimax sound better than these UA examples :

Examples :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YPR8TwQoaA
What´s "better" ?
It´s all very subjective and I actually listen to these demos via office computer´s screen-speakers.
And when using SCOPE/XITE, I actually listen w/ some phones,- not studio monitors like I did in my former location.
It might also need a direct comparison of identical patches,- which I´d avoid to save lifetime.

Instead I do what I learned when working professional in music biz,- using the tools I get the job done with (quickly).
I´m pretty sure, when you don´t own the real deal anyway and when you don´t own SCOPE PCI or XITE and Minimax, you´ll get the job done w/ other emulations too, especially when the music is realized by using a sequencer.
Have in mind the real deal in original state somewhat sucks for sequencer use.
It needs lots of modifications and a good MIDI/CV interface (compensating the pitch offset of a 4th) and then, still no preset memory, no total recall and not all parameters available for MIDI control.
Even the Behringer Model D has extremely limited MIDI implementation, same w/ MOOG Music Minimoog D Reissue.

So, a good plugin is sometimes the better solution,- while in that context, we again can talk about the MIDI controlability, MIDI CC assignment storage and total recall of SCOPE synths.
In that department, the native UAD Minimoog LUNA plugin might beat Minimax.

But I love Minimax responds to MIDI Prg.- Change commands and wonder if the UAD plugin does too,- just because most of the 64Bit VSTi and VSTi3 don´t.

And, I´d never buy a UAD Apollo and their DAW to run this Minimoog emulation, even it sounds good enough for advertising MOOG Music partnership developement.

I always have the impression UAD Apollo/Thunderbolt focus Mac users and that´s why we read the line:
LUNA is available as a FREE download to all Thunderbolt Mac-based Apollo and Arrow owners.
So, as a PC user, I don´t trust their s##t for PC.
I also feel the same for MOTU p.ex..
All their stuff was good for Mac but PC drivers sucked.
dante wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:51 pm
or is it latency still the main advantage DSP have over native ?
Well,- most digital hardware instrument´s sound engines run on DSP(s).
In fact, these engines ARE softsynths being built into a hardware shell incl. audio-and MIDI interface and a unique set of haptics.
It´s well known these machines offer less latency than personal computer based solutions.

So yes, I prefer stuff running on DSP.

:)

Bud

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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by dante »

Well the uad octocore works fine under Windows but yeah the full blown ecosystem is a bit Mac centric but I think part of that is due wider more integrated TB support w/- the Mac

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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by valis »

There are other native implementations available. For instance the NI Monark isn't half bad, and if you're a Reaktor user you get some nice bits (like the filter) that you can use elsewhere at will.

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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by Bud Weiser »

valis wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:22 am
There are other native implementations available. For instance the NI Monark isn't half bad, and if you're a Reaktor user you get some nice bits (like the filter) that you can use elsewhere at will.
Yep,- I´m NI Komplete user since v2 special edition and now use v12.
The Arturia V Collection improved too.
For a very long time I disliked, but there´s obviously progress since Martinic entered the boat when they bought his ComboV and ComboF Vox and Farfisa organ emulations which already were VERY authentic when they were freeware.
Dunno what happened to GForce Minimonsta ...

:)

Bud
Last edited by Bud Weiser on Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by valis »

Agree about Arturia. They stopped repackaging the same code 'behind' their software with different UI's and started making useful tools! Also in our modern era they don't feel like overloaded livestock trailers hitched to your CPU when you play more than one note.

Monark surprised me though as it's basically another Reaktor synth. I'll still hold it up next to my Minimax any day of the week :)

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Re: Minimoog vs Minimax (vectorscope, spectrograph & waveforms)

Post by dante »

From Arturia I have the Fairlight and Jupiter 8. Problem with Jupiter 8 is whenever I look for a pad I end up going back to John Bowen proWave therefore hardly have used JP8.

However, I have often thought about the SynClavier as I read a lot about when Zappa stopped touring mainly to make records with it. And now, I saw it on 50% sale ($75US) - and have pulled the trigger !!!

Already just floating around a dozen or so presets in standalone mode, it has sounds suitable for Floyd type moods for my album Life of the Sun.

SynCovidier here I come :lol:

Anyway regards the UA minimoog, they want $299 US for it which would be over $500 AU. That’s insanely expensive for a Native synth which I wouldnt consider even if I didn’t have the Bundled Scope Minimax superior DSP version.

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