Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

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dante
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Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by dante » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:38 am

Its called 'IronAxe' https://www.xhun-audio.com/site/xhun.php?page=ironaxe- and its modelled - so no bulky sample library or clunky Kontakt UI's :

https://youtu.be/DBprZajoqc0

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Marco
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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by Marco » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:16 am

Well this vst guitar is a crutch, yes it's a better one than all others, but as a guitar player.... I keep my shoes on. Synthesizers are synthesizers and guitars are guitars.
:wink: out and about for music production. Are you still configguring your Studio :lol: music first!

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by Bud Weiser » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:28 am

Marco wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:16 am
Well this vst guitar is a crutch, yes it's a better one than all others, but as a guitar player.... I keep my shoes on. Synthesizers are synthesizers and guitars are guitars.
I don´t even know if you´re a good guitar player.
Most are posers.
I know lots of guitar players I´d never use in a band, on tour or for recordings and sometimes it´s better using a software, last but not least because of the fee they want for a mediocre result at the end of the day.

Bud

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dante
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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by dante » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:17 am

Guitar VST and Guitar Amp/FX modelling has come a long way even since Shreddage 1. I remember saying to DawMan just a few years ago that the only way to get a good guitar sound is with a guitar. But I'm somewhat reversed on that position now. You cant get a real guitar sound/performance with a keyboard (& virtual stuff) but you can certainly get a very good one.

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by Bud Weiser » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:53 pm

dante wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:17 am
I remember saying to DawMan just a few years ago that the only way to get a good guitar sound is with a guitar.
I really think that´s true,- as it is for a violin.
The expressivity is extremely complex.
dante wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:17 am
But I'm somewhat reversed on that position now. You cant get a real guitar sound/performance with a keyboard (& virtual stuff) but you can certainly get a very good one.
exactly !

The instrument itself and even you sample "deeply" or model, is less than 50%.
It´s all about how you deal/play w/ a sound, especially when it comes to software,- even hardware synthesizers.
Lyle Mays said you have to "cook" your patches like a good meal until they are expressively playable.
That was right !
It´s not the gear, it´s the user.
For sure, there´s a learning curve when using software and you have to make lots of patches until it works for a given purpose,- but it will do.
It´s so good meanwhile.

OTOH, the real deal togeher w/ the right player will deliver (better) performance and variations in almost no time,- when the artist is good enough to deliver.
So, I myself, I don´t even try beating the specialists (real musicians).
It´s just only for the layouts.


Bud

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by Sounddesigner » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:54 pm

I've never heard of Xhun Audio till now and i must say their IronAxe guitar plugin sounds VERY good to me. Native has been pretty strong in the Physical Modeling arena for a while now. It's not as good as the real deal wich is a expert musician playing a traditional instrument but good enough to fool the ears of the average joe :) and good enough to get the job done for sure. This ironaxe is definitely buy worthy for me so far anyways.

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by Bud Weiser » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:01 am

Sounddesigner wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:54 pm
IronAxe guitar plugin sounds VERY good to me. ...
This ironaxe is definitely buy worthy for me so far anyways.
Yes, sounds good, but it´s always best to play such VI w/ a MIDI-guitar.
I´d wait until it´s version 2.0 and 64Bit compatible.

:)

Bud

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by dante » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:29 pm

Yep x64 and I’m in !

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by dawman » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:57 pm

Shreddage 3 for Lynard Skynard ADT Sounding Guitar lead pisses off my Guitarist.
But I know how to play Guitar. Had an SG Standard I played. Hendrix, McLaughlin, Coryell, Eric Johnson.
But I play leads where that big sounding lead is needed and my Guitarist is good but doesnt have “that” sound.

One instance of any sampked guitar is ok, but you need more.
Ill explain.

Think of Ted Nugent or Iommi doing those dual string bends where they bend the B string while hitting the E string too, up a whole step to match the pitch.
One instance will not get you there.

But dual instances with different PBend values sure will.

I use 2 x Instances of Shreddage 3 hard panned with a value of a half step PBend on #1, a value of a whole step PBend on #2.
Then Orange Trees Heavy Metal Dracus with a whole step.

Sure its 3 x instances but for fat bastard rock I smoke the sound guitarists around here use with their dance floor sized pedal boards.
My acoustic sounds great too because I use a six string x 2. Pettinghouse and Orange Tree.
I can do Baby Im leaving you, Dust in the Wind, you name I can lkay it and it sounds great, and yes better than the dudes around here because if they arent lazy and bring an aciustic, they strum it which is fine, but I strum pick, a technique I adapted from playing guitar for years before I even thought to tackle Wakemen and Emerson.

Saturday night the guitarist from a famous Micheal Jackson tribute wasnt close enough to realize my guitarist wasnt doing the solos on Just Wanna make love to you by Foghat.
So when we did AC/DC he watched and after the set wanted to know what I was doing to make it sound so real I told him.

Fortunately his keyboard player is damn good and has a nice pro rig with Prominy Guitars, a Japanese kid who makes great sampled Guitar stuff too.
He called me today and thanked me for the tip.
Asked me what made you think of this?

I said one samoled guitar sucks, two and theee sound big, and I play Guitar so when your shit sucks you double or triple up.
My Electric Piano sound is Cantebury Rhodes, Piano Teq Rhodes and Crystal EPiano from Keyspace, My Acoustic Piano sound is Keyscape LA Grand and my PTeq Upright.
Strings are PLAY Hollywood Strings plus LASS.
I use Kontakt Session Pro, CHein Pro, BBB, Screaming Trumpet and Straight Ahead Jazz fr my Horn Sections.

None of these instruments have any balls until you double up.

Once you get on stage with real drums mic’d, SVT and Marshall Stacks, you sink or swim.
If you cant hear the difference you should look into another line of work.

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by dante » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:32 am

Ok the Phil Spectre Wall Of Sound. What your doing sounds good - if u post your Tony Iommi double bends Id like to hear. But also ELP sounded big with only 3 instruments really on early albums before they got into Studio production fanfares which were no longer just 3 common men. And when I saw Jaco live in '77 he made his bass sound like a whole band, I'm not kidding he was phenomenal like nothing I ever expected you could get out of 1 instrument.

So theres the Phil vs Jaco approach - I like em both - exploit and mix each where you can.

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by garyb » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:40 am

when using virtual instruments, most need to be layered if you want them to sound like real instruments. otherwise, they sound like thin recordings of real instruments. there are no vstis that actually sound like the real thing, unless they make the computer unusable for everything else. vstis can sound very nice, of course, and more than nice enough for most uses, but let's not pretend like they are direct replacements.

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by dante » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:00 pm

Shreddage can get pretty damn close with the right chain. Eg fir a overdriven lead, SPL Transient Designer for sustain, followed by a touch of classic Roland Brigade Chorus, an amp sim like Bias FX or low gain Marshall.

Eg below was done with all fake 🎸 guitar.

https://soundcloud.com/hitfoundry/too-late

In fact everything was fake except the vocal.

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by garyb » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:00 pm

as i said, "can sound very nice".
it really does sound more than good, but it's not quite the same as real instruments. that's not a crime or anything. it doesn't matter if the guitar is "fake" or not. it's some sounds and those sounds are music or they aren't.

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by valis » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:17 pm

Personally I'm into electronic models that can be pushed into arenas where you have more territory to explore than the thing being modelled covers. This is what attracted me to synthesis back when all I had was guitars/pedals/amps, and it's what attracted me to computer synthesis back when I had to compile csound .orc+score files to make sounds hitherto unheard of. So does this qualify for that usage scenario?

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by dante » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:25 am

No idea since I cant run the 32 bit demo without first setting up a 32 bit O/S. For me, the fact that its modelled is more about resources than going beyond the sonic capabilities of the real thing. I don't have a rig like Dawman's that can run 3 x instances of Shreddage 3 without busting a sweat whilst I got other native stuff happening. Although I'm working on it and can use Lite versions of the Shreddage 3 in the meantime.

For what you're talking about Valis - the Yamaha PLG150VL is what I've played with in the past - I still have the card but don't use it. But you could mix and match characteristics of various monophonic instruments such as a reed mouthpiece on a trumpet, or a bowed saxophone - etc etc. A friend of mine was a bit of a wiz with the NRPN's to get some good imitations of flute flutter, sax rasp etc. Fun days.

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by Marco » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:30 am

Well, when I play a rhythm guitar on my Keyboard it sounds like a harp hahaha. :lol: :lol: :x :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
It is nothing but a crutch Krücke:D

Even the easiest guitar Tricks are not the same!
You could connect 20 controllers to simulate the tweaks, but it is keeps a crutch.

Same thing with Saxophon, pianos etc. But we are used to the sound of simulations, so no problem! But don't say it sounds the same.
:wink: out and about for music production. Are you still configguring your Studio :lol: music first!

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by dawman » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:54 am

The trick is to blend with real Bass, drums, guitar, etc.
Only instrument I refuse to even attempt is Saxophone.
Ive got decent section sounds when mixed with Brass, and my belching bullfrog Baritone is fat.
But when everybody asks me cover a sax solo I tell them no way Jose.
My hypocrisy only hpgoes so far, and even with the very best PhysMod Sax everyone raves about its a fucking kazoo.
That dog wont hunt...

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by dante » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:19 pm

Is it really only about 'sounding the same' ? If you can get results like this - I wouldn't be too worried about the fact its VL and not real :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1frdwn_kEFg

I certainly wouldn't be worried about whether its exactly 'the same' or not either.

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by garyb » Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:49 pm

sounds good.
sounds fake.

real instruments with great players= the best.
everyone else, do the best you can.

well, for music that nobody else will hear, and for music that is strictly commercial(low budget film, tv, and commercials), as well as for demos, those instruments are fine. when they are extras to fill in and are added to real and excellent performances, they are fine. for people with my level of skill(not likely to get a real distribution deal), they are fine.

stuff like this is the reason that there hasn't been any all-time great music made for quite a while. it's also the reason things sound generic.

in and of themselves, these are wonderful tools, but no carpenter wants to be known strictly for having a hammer. the music that gets made is more important.

if you get a real saxophone player of the same quality as that keyboard player playing a virtual saxophone, and playing the same piece, it won't even be a contest. everyone will take the real sax over the keyboard one. i use virtual instruments all the time. i like them. they are like frozen peas vs. peas from the garden. the frozen peas are just fine for many recipes. the frozen peas are not even close in flavor or nutrition to well-grown, fresh peas from the garden. there isn't anything wrong with this.

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Re: Could this be the Shreddage Killer ?

Post by dawman » Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:55 pm

Its weak, but the guy gets the vibe.
Im just a whiny bitch because Ive played in 11 Piece Horn Bands where Maynard came and stole players.
Then I played with JD but we called it 3rd Circuit & Spirit.
The inflections, glide stuff you cant do with finest stuff, plus these softy saxes sound like kazoos.

I got the chops to pull it off because I spent lots of time transcribing Charlie Parker bee bop solos, and as long as I play through quickly its passable, but we dont do “Staright No Chaser” or any Theolonius Monk.

Someday someone who plays will make us something that covers the articulations.
Until then, those dogs wont hunt..

JD at the beginning is taking is easy but later on in the song when Joan takes a break he demonstrates what a Sax sounds like.

https://youtu.be/CnRQa0ZpiZk

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