Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

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tlaskows
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by tlaskows »

I don't think 4 DSPs is quite enough... I have a 45 DSP PCI system and that seems plenty. But yeah, they could use some help.

-Tom
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SilverScoper
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by SilverScoper »

tlaskows wrote:I don't think 4 DSPs is quite enough... I have a 45 DSP PCI system and that seems plenty.
Why not ? 4 DSP is roughly the equivalent of an XITE-1D or an Apollo Quad. Scope Pro are the old DSP.
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tlaskows
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by tlaskows »

That is true. But I don't think Scope 5.1 is optimized for the new Sharcs.

-Tom
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by jksuperstar »

The XITE and XITE 1d are both SCOPE 5.1, and some devices are optimized, others don't require it. It is the devices that need to be spread across multiple DSPs, and simultaneously use a large number of connections and routing that cause issue...such as Zarg Solaris...it can handle 2 voices on XITE, mostly because 2 of those monster synths can fit on a single DSP, while the huge number of routing needs for modulation and internal mixing can't be spread across DSPs. So polyphony tends to be limited in this particular case.

I was thinking of 4 of the newer DSPs, since they are roughly equivalent to 6-10 of the old DSPs, and that would be extremely affordable to manufacture as a PCIe or USB-C type card/box. Laptop compatibility is key, as well as adding OSX support...since so many "musicians" (or producers/djs) go that route. I think it'd be perfect in an RME Babyface type format, although a PCIe card would also be a good option.
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tlaskows
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by tlaskows »

Oh, sorry. I did not know some devices were optimized...

-Tom
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by ronnie »

I think some solid ideas are taking shape. What I'm hearing is perhaps a "new" company or division is being born here so that the Scope legacy isn't perceived as being weak in the market, too niche, etc., but logically leveraged into Sonic-Core simply moving into it's next generation platform? This platform could look like a PCIe or USB-C type card/box (or both) starting with 4 of the newer DSPs? An updated shop/distribution portal, and a mixbus project? This is very ambitious stuff and I think it there's great potential as this conversation develops! And all this not attributable managing obsolescence or inherent weakness!

I'm not a fan of engulf and devour mergers and acquisitions, but maybe if the key stakeholders in the "company" like Holger and Juergen have a vision, or buy into what comes out of these discussions (driven by our knowledgable, experienced and loyal user base - which is how it should be) and they're really the only ones who can focus in on what it will take to get there, what the technical, development and manufacturing requirements and costs would entail. Of course there is marketing and PR. Maybe some big-name users and Scope developer's could get on board and there could be some partnership or venture capital situation developed as opposed to just KickStarter. I'm rambling off of the top of my head as I only have a few minutes but I look forward to hearing more from everyone else's more informed comments and suggestions. Where are we really headed with Scope? What is it's future? Where do we want to be?
"I’ve come to the conclusion that synths are like potatoes, they’re no good raw—you’ve got to cook ‘em, and I cooked these sounds for months before I got them to the point where they sounded musical to me." Lyle Mays
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by Nestor »

One of the most important marketing approaches in former Creamware and in today’s Sonic Core that have always been behind schedule and totally overdue are HIGH END DEMO SONGS AND VIDEOS OF THEIR PRODUCTS. I cannot emphasize hard enough how imperative this is in today’s world for a business to work. I am totally immersed in these fields, so I know what I am talking about very well first hand. I’m talking about sophisticated, elegant, refined and really classy outputs. Believe it or not, this could be the only thing SC may need in fact, to go up, rather than changing their business format: “get the attention and informing people”.

I wrote Creamware about 12 years ago about this issue, which I consider a problem to be solved, rather than a need.
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by dante »

+1.

Candidate Shortlist :

1) Flashy new videos
2) Flashy new mixdesk with ongoing plug-sales (native priced classic emu strips)
3) Flashy new distribution model (shop, license center)

All of which can run in parallel with Scope 6 dev.
hubird

Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by hubird »

ronnie wrote:One of the most important marketing approaches in former Creamware and in today’s Sonic Core that have always been behind schedule and totally overdue are HIGH END DEMO SONGS AND VIDEOS OF THEIR PRODUCTS. I cannot emphasize hard enough how imperative this is in today’s world for a business to work. I am totally immersed in these fields, so I know what I am talking about very well first hand. I’m talking about sophisticated, elegant, refined and really classy outputs. Believe it or not, this could be the only thing SC may need in fact, to go up, rather than changing their business format: “get the attention and informing people”.

I wrote Creamware about 12 years ago about this issue, which I consider a problem to be solved, rather than a need.
Nestor is right about that.
It's just that I think SFP needs a remake before doing new video presentation :)
Agree with Dante's recommendations :)
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ronnie
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by ronnie »

dante wrote:+1.

Candidate Shortlist :

1) Flashy new videos
2) Flashy new mixdesk with ongoing plug-sales (native priced classic emu strips)
3) Flashy new distribution model (shop, license center)

All of which can run in parallel with Scope 6 dev.
+ Expandable Modular XITE box (in Kingly Black!) with pluggable DSP boards, USB and PCI-e, MADI and plug-in options a la Pro,Project and Home. Mix & Master, Synth and Sampler, for all level pricing and features from entry level to working pro, live and studio.

"Break the Chains"
"I’ve come to the conclusion that synths are like potatoes, they’re no good raw—you’ve got to cook ‘em, and I cooked these sounds for months before I got them to the point where they sounded musical to me." Lyle Mays
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by kensuguro »

yeah, videos explaining and demoing what exactly this thing does and sounds like will be a huge help. I mean, we all know, but for someone who is foreign to the "external DSP box" concept, or maybe even to the concept of DSP, it's still all very confusing. Especially because it doesn't exactly follow the VST plugin paradigm. And there are important questions of how you make VST coexist, mix them (vsti->scope fx), etc that are difficult to conceptualize just from looking at the soniccore website. Those are pretty big questions to leave unanswered to ask for people to make a significant investment.

BTW, I remember feeling the same way with Kyma. I was seriously (still am, I guess) considering using Kyma, but I can't demo it in NYC, and even with the documentation and email correspondence, I am still not convinced I understand how exactly I'd get it going. (for the record, symbolic sound very kindly and thoroughly answered my questions) So these basic uncertainties definitely make the already existing financial barrier a magnitude higher.
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by tlaskows »

Yep, there's a lack of videos. But it's mostly straight forward, hey maybe that's a good thing? The routing is amazing, you can do anything.

I'm against USB-C type connector though, rather have PCI-e card. 6 DSPs at 400MHz would fit the bill. Don't forget ADAT!

-Tom
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tlaskows
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by tlaskows »

tlaskows wrote:Yep, there's a lack of videos. But it's mostly straight forward, hey maybe that's a good thing? The routing is amazing, you can do anything.

I'm against USB-C type connector though, rather have PCI-e card. 6 DSPs at 400MHz would fit the bill. Don't forget ADAT!

-Tom
There was a question once on UA on how to insert an external effect. It is not so straight forward...

-Tom
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by jhulk »

thats why i said a monthly or yearly subscription direct with sonic core is a much better idea

there are a few places that do it which help the developers working continually on new material

new plugs or sample sets

kick starter is good for brand new projects say like a new audio dsp card or an xite2 for instance

but for stuff that is already there no point in doing a kick starter like has been said as it would put of new customers off

finding out that there funding a product to code out bugs

and as we are a close community why not use be the backers with a subscription that benefits us and helps develop ment of new plugs and a and r into new cards
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by SilverScoper »

tlaskows wrote:That is true. But I don't think Scope 5.1 is optimized for the new
-Tom
the clock speed is five times higher - so 4 new DSP is like 20 old ones, even without optimisation.
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by ronnie »

jhulk wrote: ... as we are a close community why not use be the backers with a subscription that benefits us and helps develop ment of new plugs and a and r into new cards
This could work with some incentives like subscriber discounts on plug-ins (new and old) - instead of waiting for sales - in which S|C is particularly generous - and free updates to subscribers in good standing. This could start with Scope 6 and also a more entry level box (A 4 new DSP box with MIDI, ADAT and Analog I/O and optional 8 or 16 I/O whip cable (a la Apollo). Like the Cakewalk model, if the subscription lapses before the "lease" period only the previous paid versions will work.

This would provide a steady revenue stream, smaller per seat, but over time would grow with a lower entry fee driving new sales. A business minded look at the stream and volume potential would definitely be in order.
"I’ve come to the conclusion that synths are like potatoes, they’re no good raw—you’ve got to cook ‘em, and I cooked these sounds for months before I got them to the point where they sounded musical to me." Lyle Mays
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by Nestor »

kensuguro wrote:yeah, videos explaining and demoing what exactly this thing does and sounds like will be a huge help. I mean, we all know, but for someone who is foreign to the "external DSP box" concept, or maybe even to the concept of DSP, it's still all very confusing. Especially because it doesn't exactly follow the VST plugin paradigm. And there are important questions of how you make VST coexist, mix them (vsti->scope fx), etc that are difficult to conceptualize just from looking at the soniccore website. Those are pretty big questions to leave unanswered to ask for people to make a significant investment.

BTW, I remember feeling the same way with Kyma. I was seriously (still am, I guess) considering using Kyma, but I can't demo it in NYC, and even with the documentation and email correspondence, I am still not convinced I understand how exactly I'd get it going. (for the record, symbolic sound very kindly and thoroughly answered my questions) So these basic uncertainties definitely make the already existing financial barrier a magnitude higher.
Exactly Ken.

On top of it all, the former Pulsar was surrounded by sort of “very difficult only for professionals” approach, Pulsar was mystified as been for studio owners, because beginners would have a steep learning curve, which was true in a way. The idea that it was cryptic, mysterious and for professionals only, worked very well in those times, but not today, not any longer, in a day in which young children manage technology like anybody else with easy and fast. So the concept of “pro” (in that particular sense of unfathomable technical difficulty), is finished and even repudiated.

Yes, it is a deep platform, but we should never again present it as a difficult platform to manage, but rather, as a tool so complex and capable, that can do this and that, and the other thing over there too.

Definitely, there is a need for high end demo songs and videos to achieve this.

We have heard that there are important people out there using SC like Hans Zimmer, for instance, that amazing creative people like John Bowen participate in our platform. Some special interviews (of very high quality in every sense), could be created talking about SC with them.
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by astroman »

you know I love Scope for it's technology - one of the most smart systems ever created

but it's pointless to summon up the past over and over again
time has moved on - in 2000 Scope was the way to achieve a great sound - today it's 1 option among several

listen to Sean Costello's Valhalla Plugins and you'll find Sharc flavour executed on a Pentium
(Sean has worked for AD)
Scope's Masterverb is a piece of crap compared to his Room-Reverb
Warp69 moved native with ReLab and his Lexicon Emulation... get's great reviews
UHE makes native synths that have big fans in this community
on an iPad you'll find the best guitar amp emulations, Mike Scuffham a close 2nd with S-Gear on Intel
stuff from Apesoft (Apefilter, Sparkle) can't even be thought of in Scope, no way at all
Steven Slate is the big guy for big Studio sound... and big mouth... but he adresses his audience
just for completeness: UAD doesn't sound llike complete crap either and has the license to 'names'

Scope is a great tool, but today it's far away from being the holy grail
there is a problem with the core system, as (imho) those experts that implemented it aren't available anymore
(makes adaption to technology changes challenging, otherwise the thing runs fine)

the user interface is counterproductive as hell
just look at those Pulsar screenshots from the past - or the latest mixer interface under Devices
for my part it drives me nuts, there's always a cute picture in the way here and there and click and the next...
the GUI load eats up most (if not all) of the DSP processing benefits

Scope in it's form of 5.1 is usable for us experienced 'die-hards' only
as a contemporary environment it's as dead as can be (considering a full blown production solution)
mind you: there's no chance at all to get this thing sample synced over a large project
the core system doesn't supply the required information - it simply doesn't exist

I'd like to see progress in this platform because it never left me off doing what it can do...
but please: get real... ;)

cheers, Tom
hubird

Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by hubird »

That's how it is...
astroman wrote: there is a problem with the core system, as (imho) those experts that implemented it aren't available anymore
(makes adaption to technology changes challenging, otherwise the thing runs fine)

Scope in it's form of 5.1 is usable for us experienced 'die-hards' only
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Re: Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

Post by garyb »

many of the ideas here are great.

one thing though, you cannot do with Native, what can be done with Scope. the GUI does not eat more cpu cycles than it saves.

yes, there are plenty of sound making and shaping tools out there. a Scope mix on 45 dsps CANNOT be done on a nayive machine with the same quality. while many native devices sound every bit as good as Scope devices(some better), when a whole mix is involved, those devices severely limit possibilities as they are very CPU cycle intensive.

Scope is VERY useful and it's interface is a godsend, if you know your way around a studio. i regularly do things unthinkable with a computer with my system. of course if you just want to make electronica, there are many other ways to do so, probably more efficiently and easier. a person who thinks that any native machine can do what a native machine connected to an XITE-1 can do is, in the vernacular, straight trippin. almost all REAL producer/artist/muscicians(not people who do it simply for something to do) use a combination of soft and hardware. almost nobody doing anything that "matters"(read "makes an actual normal living") is strictly native, because while native is economical and does many things extremely well, it doesn't do everything well. one computer is not sufficient to do everything, even now. to put something on soundcloud does not require much learning or equipment.

no, it's not for everyone, but the "turn back the clock" thing is absolute bullshit(sorry astro, i still like you). music production is NOT about buying new things. a compressor is still a compressor. good sound is still good sound.

the computer is NOT the "be all, end all" of music production. it is just another tool, the crappiest one available for everything other than arranging, but economically the best choice for most. what gets to me is people more concerned about their computer toys and getting new things for cheap or free, than making music meant for the public's benefit. these people are ruling the audio market and while they brag about new stuff they are getting, they are ruining the business for people who care about making music FIRST, before they care about computers. this is the biggest problem, people are more interested in finding things that take away their choices a do everything for them, instead of continuing to expand their horizons(the last thing people need is a compressor that comes with presets, anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't really know how to use one).

actually, an XITE-1 should cost ten times what it does. this would position it in it's actual niche instead of where it is now, sitting in front of children who just want a cheap toy that they can discard next week for a newer toy.

ooops! maybe i'm getting to cranky....i'm not against anyone's practices, what they enjoy about music production, playing with computers, etc. i'm just speaking up for that which cannot speak for itself.
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